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Tuesday, 10 December 2002 -
5 years of challenge ? $comment_count ?>
Why is is that more top-level QW players do not play CPMA 1vs1? I can understand that CPMA TDM does not quite 'work' well enough when you have such a thriving TDM competitive scene in QW but CPMA 1vs1 does work and it works damn well.
I can see no reason, on the face of it, why skilled QW 1vs1 players should not also enjoy CPMA 1vs1. Skilled VQ3 players such as ZeRo4 and Daler have enjoyed it. Why not more QW players?
It's not as if QW players need to play one or the other - they could play both. It's more a case of 'giving it a go' and having fun with something else that is also very good and a little different.
QW players should really enjoy CPMA 1vs1 - it's fast, has a map which plays very much like DM4 (CPM3), and the sort of skills developed in QW transfer across well.
There have been a few QW players who have played CPMA 1vs1 and appreciated it - FienD (US), Harlsom (AU) and of course rat (FI) - who is one of the best CPMA 1vs1 players.
But all too often I get a sense from QW players that they regard CPMA as being nothing more than a poor imitation of the 'real thing' (which is, of course, QW). CPMA is not good enough for them to play - "because it's not QW".
This strikes me as being an immature attitude and indicative of a community with a 'superiority complex' and a closed mind towards other gaming alternatives.
I think it would be fair to say that members of the QW community often regard themselves as being the "most hardcore", and "least gayest" of all the Quake communities. And I think they box themselves in with this "we're superior to you" attitude.
The QW community has for a number of years reminded me of a small, closed religious sect. Members within the sect gain security and feelings of self-worth from the shared conviction that they play the best game and all the others are "gay". Outsiders are shared targets for derision - including other variants of Quake and other games (the best target of all - cs players).
From this perspective anyone who plays CPMA is no longer "a pure QW player" and I think the fear of no longer being accepted within the QW community is what prevents many QW players from having some fun by playing another good computer game.
If you haven't checked out CPMA - promode.org
Map pack containing CPM3
If you want one demo to look at - matr0x vs szAjBus
Comments
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I play QW and enjoy it.
I dont care what other people play, as long as there are some people I have come to know (IRL too) playing QW with me I'll be 'happy' in my gaming life. I don't frown upon people who aren't 'pure' QW players; I'm a regular sinner myself (I even used to play Q2-of all things-from time to time on LAN for a while).
I don't feel supperior for playing QW, although I do think QW is a game superior (by quite a bit) over any other game I have played. Players that haven't touched another game wouldn't be able to asses the value of QW and except for a few who are bound by old hardware, I think there are very few of them.
CPMA isn't one of these games I tried for a very practical reason: I don't have Q3. CPMA is good, or so they say, but I don't feel the need to 'move on' to something that might be, if all rumours are true, comparable or ever so slightly 'better' then QW.
I think your assesement of QW players is based on little truth. How silly would I look were I to say that most CPMA players are short sighted fanatical youngsters without any grasp on history for not having tried QuakeWorld? I'm sure they should really enjoy it equally much.
Why do you feel I need to be defensive about playing QW? |
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| You mean like this?: http://www.hemsida.net/dock/cs_gay.jpg It says: "At least I'm not a cs-faggot!" |
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Here's the deal with me:
I play bots alot, since they always are around when I want to play. :)
1. Qw has great bots, wich give me "humanlike" opposition.
2. CPMA has sucky bots that only do for some q3dm17 rapes.
The conclusion: I play qw 90% of the time...
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1) Some quakeworld players don't have the cpu power to get the constant 125 fps necessary to play the game on a competitve level
2) The railgun is lame |
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Is cpma so much in need of active players? I have the same reason as Jjonez. I don't have Quake3Arena and i don't feel like buying it (i could say because i fear id produces more mediocre games with the money i give them). There are probably a lot of good mods out there for the different games but i just can't and want to play them all. In fact QW is the only game i play regularly. This used to be different a few years ago but my interests have shifted.
I don't mind if anyone plays cpma, i have respect for people like Rat, as long as it does not mean to give up qw.
Like Jjonez i feel content and happy with what i have now. |
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| but that really is a great demo :) |
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| I felt the 'feel' of cpm 1.0 was actually faster than the current cpma...and i think the weapon switch was faster for all the weapons; and the fact that it had a backpack.mdl was very cool. but the main thing about cpma is that it has the railgun....which is just not a fast gameplay weapon: hence even the design team has tried to hamper it by slowing its switch time. But the rail is a q2/3 thing, and as such is going to put off qw people who might otherwise be interested. there is no question that qw players feel they play on the best platform...it is a sort of gaming conservatism which thinks "if isn't broken, why change it?" I tend to see it this way myself. Even though there are some haughty chaps in qw don't blanket us all as being such; I am ashamed by some of the current crap going on in the na qw scene as are many. Hence we are not all supercilious assholes :) |
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| another thing i think cpma might benefit from would be to extend the splash rocket damage...very few ppl go for direct hits; ans it gives more weight to prediction shots as well. |
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Got some good responses there from a fairly knowledgeable and experienced crew of QW players though, in the spirit of making my argument as strongly as I can, I am going to come right back at you with more.
Let's look at the reasons given by some of the leading QW writers and organisers (and the odd player).
First of all Jjonez. Now Jjonez you can't hope to speak for the QW community on this subject, as you're just too damn reasonable. So give it up.
The fact is, you're a sort of geriatric retiree who is still happy living in the 1930s. You're not, I'm sorry to break it to you, a 'top QW player' and so nobody cares if you remain in blissful ignorance till your dying day with QW.
My argument is simply that it is a crying shame that the world's best QW players don't, on occasion, play some serious CPMA 1vs1 and show us what they've got. For the nth and final time, I'm not suggesting that said QW players 'move on' to CPMA 1vs1. It's not a case of 'either/or', it's more a case of 'try some of this for a change'.
You haven't even got Q3A on your h/d. So you haven't even SEEN a top level CPMA game. This about says it all. Q3A is bargain-bin cheap these days and here's this mod made by Quake players for Quake players that is producing demos that get ppl really talking, and you are walking around with no interest whatsoever. There's something wrong there - it just doesn't seem right.
As for your interesting counter-point about CPMA players, actually I think more CPMA players are likely to have seriously investigated QW than vice-versa. But even if not, I would indeed think it a terrible shame if FPS players who play games at this sort of level did not know their history (as well as what goes on currently - and that includes QW).
I have never been one to argue that a CPMA player should not try QW and in fact my whole bloody argument is that there is room in life for more than 'either/or'. How many more times do I have to repeat myself before you get it?
Second, 'qw rocks', that's a good argument. But again it doesn't apply to the QW players I am talking about - who often play high-level FPS games online and at lan. Many of them live in Finland and Sweden and other cold and dark places. Why can't they play Rat?
Third, zzjzz argues that some QW players lack the cpu power. Yeah that's true, but not of all the top QW players of course. So it can't be the explanation, but only at most some part of it. And what's that other argument? That the RG is "gay"? That argument doesn't cut it anymore. There have been too many great games played. The evidence is now overwhelming. CPMA 1vs1 is very good quality 1vs1 action. Certainly good enough for top FPS players to take seriously. And that's my point.
Fourth, Apollyon. Yes I would love to see some more active players of the calibre of the top CPMA players and hence I wish more top QW players would extend themselves a litle and give it a go. There are some amazing games being produced, and they are still pushing the boundaries. Why wouldn't I want to see more active players? Why the hell do you think I'm writing this stupid column?
So you're like Jjonez and don't even have Q3A installed. You're happy with what you've got and are not interested in anything else even if people tell you it's good. Well, what a laid-back attitude that is! It's so laid back it's horizontal.
Finally, xhrl (skipping uncas because he has seen the demo). Xhrl, your argument is far too rational and useful for this discussion. I'm trying to tear a hole in somebody's skin here. Thank you.
You know I'm glad you guys are happy but I'm not happy. What kind of fucking community is this that I can spend the better part of three years assembling a world-wide and world-fucking class team of programmers, designers, mappers and the like and you morons don't even have Q3A on your h/d and you haven't even SEEN a good CPMA demo? It's all utterly wasted on the likes of you I guess.
You must have like zero interest in FPS design and gameplay issues. We must really be very different FPS gamers indeed. I find that very sad, in the sense that I can't share the joy of a good CPMA game with you guys even though I KNOW that you have the eyes to appreciate it. All because you don't even have the fucking game on your h/d and don't give enough of a shit to even check it out. You lazy bastards! |
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this is a great column, i myself as an ex. QW player can't see why more QW'ers don't play CPMA. The most common thing i hear is "The railgun is gay". This is just stupid, the railgun is quite different in cpma from say vq3 and it is easily the most satisfying weapon from any fps game. I can understand if u play CPMA for a few weeks and then say "i don't like what the railgun does to the gameplay" but most are just totally unprepared to even try it because it's a mod for the evil vq3. imo many QW'ers need to wake up and look at what is around them, cause cpm is just perfect for the style of play. cmon guys u can bunny and keep your speed up stairs !! :)
cheers
//mek |
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Hehe, calm down dude and bash the hoardes of Q3 players that refuse to pick up the CPMA mod. Wasnt it meant to replace the newbiefied and dumbed down VQ3 in the first place?
Ok, i admit i have just found my pirated copy of Q3 which i thought i had (deliberately) lost. I will install CPMA and watch some demos as soon as i have made some room on my hdd. Promised. Besides, it might be a bargain elsewhere but Q3 is indexed in germany and indexed games dont get distributed here 3 years after their release and i'd have to go to a shop that imports games and those are rather expensive. Mailorder of indexed media is prohibited in germany even though i have the right to buy and own it due to my age.
I have more than zero interest for FPS design and gameplay. I have played about every shooter up until Q3 was released and i started with Wolfenstein and Doom. I have played Doom, Rott, Blood, Quake, Quake2, Quake3, Halflife, Counterstrike in multiplayer and i enjoyed all at their time. Some for longer, some for only a short period of time. QW is defiantely the best of the bunch. But FPS isnt even my favourite genre. If it wasnt for the online community and competition i would have long since dropped Quake. Gaming as a whole does not interest me as much as it used to anymore. I havent bought a new game in years. Especially FSP games became dull. I have the feeling i have seen it all and wasnt it someone from id itself who said we are nowadays just seeing improving grahic engines?
I am not a top QW players either so i cannot answer your question why next to none of them try and play CPMA as well. You asked them but i doubt many read your columns. I will put a link to it on the smackdown site. I personally only know of one top player who plays a Q3 mod and that is MrLame from Hellfire who enjoyes Reaction Quake 3 apparently. |
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| comment #5 is absolutely pathetic |
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Whatever you did to tweak the railgun i think this is the worst ever weapon thought of for a multiplayer fps (maybe apart from the uber-spam of some UT weapons). I am convinced it is only in Q2 and Q3 because J.C. saw the movie Eraser with Arnold Schwarzenegger and thought it would be cool to have a game with this cool heavy guy, cigar in his mouth, blasting away everyting. Go read the .plan update where he explains why he disliked bunnyhopping and why it wont be in Q3 and you will understand...
My problem with the railgun? I think it is a no-skill weapon. Or rather no-brains. I know it takes skill to be good at aiming with it and you even have to predict (due to latency and netcode) a bit. But what skill is in being able to frag an opponent on the other side of the map. All you need to have is a good aim. No strategy involved at all. And there should be more to a good FPS in multiplayer than just aim. Yeh, yeh i know you got these combos where you hit someone with shaft or rl and then finish off with rail. That is nice but you don't need to have a railgun for that. A weapon which is so powerful (even in the dumbed down VQ3 mode) yet easy to wield (aim and press button, target drops dead) is wrongly placed in a multiplayer FPS.
I remember when there were still Q3 1on1 tournaments i regularly read that player x was owned by player y on t4 due to his supreme rail. I wasnt impressed even once. It impresses me when players use their brain in combining skills like aim, movement, prediction and smart thinking.
I will see what you did to "fix" it in CPMA.
JOHN CARMACK (and rest of the world): A RAILGUN IS NOT A COOL WEAPON! But we will see it again in Doom3, i am concinced of that. |
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back in x8 days, I was considering giving up qw for good and moving onto cpma, cpma still has it's problems. But here's a good argument..
.: DM2 uniques :.
- Sliding platforms over a lava pit, you could just jump over the little pit but you could always be shotgunned in midair and fall like a rock into the lava. Walking on the sliders promoted stealth, whereas jumping over it gave away your position.
- The grates, you required lots of skill and placement to shoot enemies through them.
- U-jump near the RA+MH
- The "stairs to MH" trick jump
.: DM4 uniques :.
- Holes in the upper floor which you could shoot at enemies (if you have no idea what im talking about, http://atf.qgl.org/files/duel_guy_vs_noodles[dm4].zip - 2:40 in my pov, perfect usage of the holes)
- LG teleport could be used to telefrag lower victims
.: DM6 uniques :.
- Use the LG thing to quickly propell to the upper area
Well that's just the main 3 maps of quakeworld dueling. I feel that none of the CPMA maps have originality or uniqueness (to the exception of cpm1a which I semi-like).
The CPMA maps are so un-original and boring, and lets not talk about the poor quality remakes of qw maps (hubaeroq3, endifacid) comes to mind.
I feel QuakeWorld promotes the use of stealth and cutting down on excessive noise (ie. dont collect weapons or ammo you dont need, dont fall off high places to stop the grunt noise)... whereas CPMA is just make a hell of alot of noise and spam and collect everything. (oh look at that purdy spinning weapon, lets collect it for the sake of it)
Let's not start about the railgun, it's a gay weapon.. and no I'm not whinging because I cant aim, I have 30% rail accuracy with 200ping, so yeah I can aim pretty well under extreme circumstances.
Rockets have fuck all splash damage let alone their piss ant damage when you do a direct hit "cpma rockets have as much effect as throwing sponges at someone on a trampoline - TMpovohat", serious CPMA players dont even bother with direct hits with the rocket launcher because it's such a joke of a weapon.
Grenades haha, why bother.. they're more of a danger to the user than the enemy.
Shaft.. weak as a water pistol
General typical CPMA player's attitude to QW weapons: "QuakeWorld is all rockets and shaft."
That above statement is way incorrect, nearly every weapon has it's use in QW
-=QW Weapons=-
#1 Axe - last resort otherwise useless, but funny when there's an axing
#2 Shotgun - starting weapon, good for triggering buttons which require to be shot at, also good alternative in melee with quad
#3 Super Shotgun - pretty crap weapon, except for alternative in melee quad damage.
#4 Nailgun - useless
#5 Super Nailgun - useless
#6 Grenade - general spawn rape and flushing out campers.
#7 Rocket - weapon of choice
#8 Lightning Shaft - shaft holding etc. and great weapon.
What I'm saying is that CPMA has it's useless weapons too, take the plasma rifle for example, it has no use except maybe plasma wall climbs.
In my opinion CPMA feels too much like VQ3 than it does QW, CPMA is intended to feel like your not playing VQ3 anymore, but quite frankly it doesn't. Still have to put 6 rockets into someone to cause some hurt.
On a last note, im not trying to be biased to qw or cpma, but i'm just pointing out some facts. After playing CPMA extensively, quite frankly it disturbs me how I like QW more even though im not a "old-schooler". If CPMA has incorporated the QW-like physics, then why not incorporate it's weapon balancing too. QuakeWorld is still going strong after being out for over 6 years, what made it good is what it is now. Unless you want QW players attention, CPMA is going to need to be adapted to be more like QW if it wants the best QW players to move on, because at the moment I don't see them moving on.
And to end it, who listens to Harlsom anyway, he wears MITTONS ffs! I've think I've said everything I want to say in this reply to the original article :) |
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i'd have to say the plasma has much more use than climbing... its good for lnog range when u want to annoy pesky railers, it does quite a fair bit of damage as well.
hubaeroq3 - i just played the q3 port of that, and i had a great time
if u say cpma is about running around and picking up all the guns, that may be true, but then qw is like make a single noise and ur enemy can pinpoint you and you will get canied by spam. each argument has its ups and downs
i hate rails a lot, and i complain quite often (in vra3, netcode in cpma is too good to complain)... but i've tried qw and qwtf and i couldnt see anything, i know a game isnt about eyecany but i cant see anything in qw, and i get a head ache from the terrible models. yes i remember getting off over the first q1 demo, but still.. u have to move with the times, its almost as bad as cs (minus the n00bs and excessive cheats :D ) |
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i'd have to say the plasma has much more use than climbing... its good for lnog range when u want to annoy pesky railers, it does quite a fair bit of damage as well.
hubaeroq3 - i just played the q3 port of that, and i had a great time
if u say cpma is about running around and picking up all the guns, that may be true, but then qw is like make a single noise and ur enemy can pinpoint you and you will get canied by spam. each argument has its ups and downs
i hate rails a lot, and i complain quite often (in vra3, netcode in cpma is too good to complain)... but i've tried qw and qwtf and i couldnt see anything, i know a game isnt about eyecany but i cant see anything in qw, and i get a head ache from the terrible models. yes i remember getting off over the first q1 demo, but still.. u have to move with the times, its almost as bad as cs (minus the n00bs and excessive cheats :D ) |
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i'd have to say the plasma has much more use than climbing... its good for lnog range when u want to annoy pesky railers, it does quite a fair bit of damage as well.
hubaeroq3 - i just played the q3 port of that, and i had a great time
if u say cpma is about running around and picking up all the guns, that may be true, but then qw is like make a single noise and ur enemy can pinpoint you and you will get canied by spam. each argument has its ups and downs
i hate rails a lot, and i complain quite often (in vra3, netcode in cpma is too good to complain)... but i've tried qw and qwtf and i couldnt see anything, i know a game isnt about eyecany but i cant see anything in qw, and i get a head ache from the terrible models. yes i remember getting off over the first q1 demo, but still.. u have to move with the times, its almost as bad as cs (minus the n00bs and excessive cheats :D ) |
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i'd have to say the plasma has much more use than climbing... its good for lnog range when u want to annoy pesky railers, it does quite a fair bit of damage as well.
hubaeroq3 - i just played the q3 port of that, and i had a great time
if u say cpma is about running around and picking up all the guns, that may be true, but then qw is like make a single noise and ur enemy can pinpoint you and you will get canied by spam. each argument has its ups and downs
i hate rails a lot, and i complain quite often (in vra3, netcode in cpma is too good to complain)... but i've tried qw and qwtf and i couldnt see anything, i know a game isnt about eyecany but i cant see anything in qw, and i get a head ache from the terrible models. yes i remember getting off over the first q1 demo, but still.. u have to move with the times, its almost as bad as cs (minus the n00bs and excessive cheats :D ) |
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i'd have to say the plasma has much more use than climbing... its good for lnog range when u want to annoy pesky railers, it does quite a fair bit of damage as well.
hubaeroq3 - i just played the q3 port of that, and i had a great time
if u say cpma is about running around and picking up all the guns, that may be true, but then qw is like make a single noise and ur enemy can pinpoint you and you will get canied by spam. each argument has its ups and downs
i hate rails a lot, and i complain quite often (in vra3, netcode in cpma is too good to complain)... but i've tried qw and qwtf and i couldnt see anything, i know a game isnt about eyecany but i cant see anything in qw, and i get a head ache from the terrible models. yes i remember getting off over the first q1 demo, but still.. u have to move with the times, its almost as bad as cs (minus the n00bs and excessive cheats :D ) |
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i'd have to say the plasma has much more use than climbing... its good for long range when u want to annoy pesky railers, it does quite a fair bit of damage as well.
hubaeroq3 - i just played the q3 port of that, and i had a great time
if u say cpma is about running around and picking up all the guns, that may be true, but then qw is like make a single noise and ur enemy can pinpoint you and you will get canied by spam. each argument has its ups and downs
i hate rails a lot, and i complain quite often (in vra3, netcode in cpma is too good to complain)... but i've tried qw and qwtf and i couldnt see anything, i know a game isnt about eyecany but i cant see anything in qw, and i get a head ache from the terrible models. yes i remember getting off over the first q1 demo, but still.. u have to move with the times, its almost as bad as cs (minus the n00bs and excessive cheats :D ) |
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i'd have to say the plasma has much more use than climbing... its good for long range when u want to annoy pesky railers, it does quite a fair bit of damage as well.
hubaeroq3 - i just played the q3 port of that, and i had a great time
if u say cpma is about running around and picking up all the guns, that may be true, but then qw is like make a single noise and ur enemy can pinpoint you and you will get canied by spam. each argument has its ups and downs
i hate rails a lot, and i complain quite often (in vra3, netcode in cpma is too good to complain)... but i've tried qw and qwtf and i couldnt see anything, i know a game isnt about eyecany but i cant see anything in qw, and i get a head ache from the terrible models. yes i remember getting off over the first q1 demo, but still.. u have to move with the times, its almost as bad as cs (minus the n00bs and excessive cheats :D ) |
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| as the top quake world player I am I will try out cpma though I know it sucks and though I have to play with lousy fps :/ |
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i'd have to say the plasma has much more use than climbing... its good for long range when u want to annoy pesky railers, it does quite a fair bit of damage as well.
hubaeroq3 - i just played the q3 port of that, and i had a great time
if u say cpma is about running around and picking up all the guns, that may be true, but then qw is like make a single noise and ur enemy can pinpoint you and you will get canied by spam. each argument has its ups and downs
i hate rails a lot, and i complain quite often (in vra3, netcode in cpma is too good to complain)... but i've tried qw and qwtf and i couldnt see anything, i know a game isnt about eyecany but i cant see anything in qw, and i get a head ache from the terrible models. yes i remember getting off over the first q1 demo, but still.. u have to move with the times, its almost as bad as cs (minus the n00bs and excessive cheats :D ) |
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also, r_picmip 10, r_lodbias 5, cg_blood 0, cg_gibs 0.
they should all help ur fps |
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| omg sorry bout spam, it told me it didnt post :( |
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| omg sorry bout spam, it told me it didnt post :( |
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If QW models look terrible, try fuhquake
http://www.fuhquake.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=369
upcoming version 0.26 looks neat ! although i still play with 320x200 vga, becouse it has the "right" feeling :) |
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So many things I want to say, but I just don't have time for them all. Still, I'm sure even a handful of honest opinions is enough to have a few of the loonies wig out as usual... :P
The "I CBF" excuse is a bit sad, yeah, but only because it really does mean "I have zero interest in FPS design and gameplay". That's hardly unique to QW'ers though: most of the UT2K3/CS/etc crowd are the same way, as are probably 90% of the FPS-playing population.
As Hoony says, there have been far too many great duels fought in CPMA for anyone with even an ounce of honesty to try and hide behind "xyz is gay" arguments. So clearly, gameplay is the wrong place for us to be looking for reasons, despite:
> there is no question that qw players feel they play on the best platform
There is AMPLE question as to the motivation and honesty behind such a claim. To put it bluntly, for most of them it's "I'm special cos I play QW and QW is 1337357". If they had to face up to the truth of QW's inferiority then suddenly they wouldn't be special any more either. Complete avoidance of better games helps that denial persist more easily than actually being exposed to them and then having to refuse to acknowledge it.
Which segues nicely into the one key point that no-one's dared mention yet.
FEAR.
Girly men (to paraphrase xhrl) won't even RISK becoming minnows when they know they can stay pike by hiding in their current pond.
I hate to break it to you xhrl, but the original hardcore FPS ISN'T "the manly man's game" and it hasn't been for a LONG time now.
Manly is World Champion ZeRo4 entering Challenges and risking his rep when he knows he's got almost no shot at winning it. Manly is actually going where the competition is.
QW has become predominantly a place for the weak to cower while still being able to convince themselves of their greatness, and "the current crap going on in the na qw scene" is just one of the more visible aspects of that personality coming out.
Oh, and it's a place for ProModers to have some fun every once in a while or learn about the past: many of them at least dabble a little, and some even play quite a lot. But then, they HAVE proven themselves, so it's a lot easier to travel in that direction than the other way around.
I'm not claiming that this is EVERY QWer's reason, but a majority? I'd say so.
I think Hoony's heart is still in the "good old days" of the game, when it WAS home to the elite, and as a result has far higher expectations of what the current crop might acheive than they actually deserve. It was those players who made a good game great, in the same way that later generations made VQ3 playable.
The ones who DO have skill and the balls to put it on the line have already at least tried CPMA. If they didn't like it or couldn't hack it, that's fine: at least they gave it a shot. It's the cowards and the dinosaurs that haven't and won't, and I'm very happy with them STAYING in QW, or anywhere else that is NIMBY. :)
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I think you talk too much about something you dont have push really far, like most people who are talking with the anonymous usage we can have over inet. I have nothing against qw and I like it even if i'm really one of the worst player you can find for some qw, but cpma is not the way you describe it.
For the direct hits rockets, just go to challenge-tv, promode and search for rat demo, you'll see at wich point it can be annoying to have an opponent able to make lot of direct hits rockets.
Shaft is sure quite different from qw, but he's more effective than you say, excepting people learning to use it a bit, but it's the all ping weapon over all.
Pills are used exactly the same way as in qw when you're used to their bouncing, etc. Of course once again it is different from qw.
Railgun is gay, sure, and more against those damn backwarders/campers who are haunting server nowadays...
I think you come to a point where to make you play cpma it must be qw ... Ok that answer to the topic here, qw players wont play cpma cause it's not qw :|
bleader
Ps: my english sux I know :|
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| its teamplay that attracts most qwplayers, not 1on1 |
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| Yeah right arQon, all qw'ers are are weakminded cowards without skill. |
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> I'm not claiming that this is EVERY QWer's reason
Is your problem a lack of honesty Ap, or just difficulty reading?
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Maybe it is difficulty reading, english is not my first language. Maybe i will take a look at CPMA. But right now i am busy running a qw league as well as playing qw so i have neither time nor interest to get into anything else, thanks.
Go harass some VQ3 or CS players since it is them playing the inferior games here. |
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All "excuses" for not playing Q3 CPMA seem to be considered invalid by you.
Just accept it: Some Quakeworld players are Quakeworld players and not FPS gamers. It doesn't matter if a better game comes out, it's not quake.
What you're trying to do here is in my opinion by no means fair. You're wanting to make the Brazilian football champions play basketball and when they refuse to check your well created game called basketball out, you call them a bunch of losers from the stoneage. |
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Well from what i've seen of his posts in the past, Hoony is most likely trying to stir up some responses and discussion (hey, "any publicity is good publicity") with some thinly veiled and probably not overly serious jibes at QW players. Let me put forth the case as I see it.
I am content with QW. I am not waiting for the "next big thing" in multiplayer fps. I see no reason to start playing a new game at the current moment in time, because qw 4on4 is just so much better than any other type of gaming imo. I prefer 4on4 to 1on1, and I prefer QW to other games, so why would I play 1on1 CPM instead of 4on4 QW? Above Hoony says its not a case of "either/or", but to some extent it is. There is only so many hours in the day I can dedicate to online gaming, maybe for students who can play 15 hours a day there is room for multigaming but for those of us with fulltime jobs and other interests it makes sense to maximise the utility of the time available to us. To me, that time is best spent on qw 4on4 with maybe a little FFA if that's not possible. So you don't need to "repeat yourself" again, you need to explain to me why I should give up time on something which gives me a guarenteed high level of enjoyment for time on something which doesn't?
The whole "elitism" issue about QW community perhaps holds some weight, but I don't buy what you suggest about multigamers being unaccepted. You mentioned rat above; he is a perfect example of a CPM/QW player who is accepted in both communities. OK, so rat isn't exactly a world beater in QW but he plays TDM to a respectable level with his clan Daltons. The 'abuse' directed at players of other games is more a case of a running joke than any genuine heartfelt hostility in the case of most players I believe. In fact, "CS" is often a derogatory term directed at fellow players using an especially defensive style of play. Like znappe once said, "QW is more CS than CS is CS".
I quite liked this part: "What kind of fucking community is this that I can spend the better part of three years assembling a world-wide and world-fucking class team of programmers, designers, mappers and the like "
Which begs the reply, "DID I FUCKING ASK YOU TO????" How you spend time is YOUR business, if you feel bad at receiving little praise for putting all that effort in thats your own fault not mine. I'm grateful to people like rxr(ktpro), azazello(mqwcl), highlander(mvdsv), jjonez(sd-w), apollyon(sd-eu), zibbo/perkele(qizmo/ASE), tonik/fuh(zqw/fuhq) (and of course Hoony|QW) who have improved my quality of gaming in recent years with QW stuff, not to some guy developing for another game. HEAR YE THIS: 3 years ago when CPM was first talked about by yourself, I was happy with QW. 3 years later, I'm still happy with QW. IT JUST REALLY IS THAT FUCKING GOOD, OK?!
Shall I continue? Yes, I think so. As one would expect, arQon chips in on this thread; he sometimes sticks comments down on QW related stuff too, although usually in some kind
of attempt to put QW down a little bit :)
"Girly men (to paraphrase xhrl) won't even RISK becoming minnows when they know they can stay pike by hiding in their current pond."
But what about those who aren't even a pike in the QW pond? What about all those guys who never win or even make the semifinal of major QW events? These average players don't have much to lose "respect" wise by leaving QW, yet they continue to play it - because its great fun! I prefer playing QW frogbots than any other FPS against real people (and I have played in UT clangames etc as I quite like UT), and how much kudos and respect do you think that earns me from QW community, playing ztndm3 ffa on my own localhost against bots?:) Other games are fine to dabble in when time allows, but the "high level competitive 1on1" play Hoony talks of doesn't appeal to me greatly. How are QW players refusing to "face up to the truth of QW's inferiority" any different from your refusal to accept that QW is a better game? Its subjective, what makes you right and them wrong?
Let's say you place my attitude in the "because it's not QW" section described in the original post, which you describe as being immature. Now consider this: I like bread. I have eaten bread for the vast majority of my lifetime. I still like bread and don't bother eating substitutes instead... somehow my sandwich just isn't the same when the cheese and ham is placed between two slabs of chocolate (which i dabble in, on their own from time to time). Oh, and before you try and comeback with something about how QW is a flavour/type of bread, and I should try others, it isn't. QW=BREAD! So now I am immature for using bread in my sandwiches and not chocolate, like the majority of western civilisation :)
On a more serious note, I should point out that I have tried CPM (and also QW-fix for q3) and it didn't attract me that much. I'm sorry, but given a choice between QW and q3 trying to be QW with a little extra added on I'll take QW everytime. Granted, I didn't play CPM extensively, and haven't for well over a year now but why spend time getting to know something new when it's not as much fun as QW for the short term future at least! For a start, theres such a huge barrier in terms of configuration options (just like in QW), getting hud/gfx/'cheats'/networking etc set up before you even stand a chance of competing regardless of skill level.
OK so it took me a little time to write this, that I could have spent testing CPM again. But i like debating stuff like this in lighthearted comment wars.
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Most qw players play other games, my clan gave up qw for a year or so and played in cs, q3dm, q3ctf, ra3 etc leagues for a while. None of which we found much fun so we went back to qw again. We still individually play in other clans for different games like rtcw, q3tdm, q3ctf, cs etc. I played in the bwcpm tdm league test season too and none of us even liked it as much as vanilla q3 tbh.
And anyway almost none of the current crop of qw players is intrested in duelling and even hardcore promode players admit its teamplay has issues. |
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"But i like debating stuff like this in lighthearted comment wars."
Really?! Whoda thunk it! |
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the more i think about it the more I'm convinced this is just a publicity stunt by hoony since CPM v1.0 "final" is coming very soon. I think Hoony thought, if I just write "new cpm coming soon.... got some nice new features n'shit.... yeah." nobody would pay any attention. And sat for 5mins planning how to get attention from people who enjoy cpm style gameplay (qw players....)
So congrats to the big H, you have succeded. If you get even 5 more people to try CPM based on this thread, you are ahead. Apo's "maybe" has already gained you 0.5 players :) |
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"So many things I want to say, but I just don't have time for them all."
To bad u had time to write anything at all arQon.
Some parts of what u wrote in ur previous posts are complete and utter BS.
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wp HangTime: someone I think is wrong on just about every count but can still respect, because he's made a decision and he's done so on grounds that aren't just weak excuses. Plus he's got a sense of humour. :)
#14 (who's anon of course) is the poster child for the type of QWer I'm talking about: cowardly, unskilled, and in denial about it; hiding in (or more accurately in his case, fleeing to) QW for exactly the reasons I mentioned and more full of shit than a clogged sewer.
"QW > CPMA because my RL and prediction skills are so crap I can't hit a barn without a newbie-friendly "can't miss" weapon. But I'm super-1337, really I am!"
Thanks for proving I wasn't very far off base.
> "all rockets and shaft is way incorrect, nearly every weapon has it's use in QW" ... "except these 5 out of 8 which are useless for combat". Heh. So it's "all rockets and shaft AND spam" then? Glad we got that cleared up... :)
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Oh boy! Interesting discussion!! HT: Great posts! Sums up much of my thoughts too!
Of course this is a publicity stunt. He knew he had to go to extremes to get the truely elite gamers to the imho pretty good mod. As he knows, as good as us, that there will be no showing of the mods true potential untill the masters of qw have played it. |
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The five thinking minutes of Hoony:
Our best man is getting his ass raped in his native game... 2+2=... |
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I didn't say the railgun is "gay", I said it was lame. I just don't like the idea of an infinite range hitscan weapon that does the most (or nearly the most) damage of any weapon. That does not mean that many great games haven't been played. I have seen a bunch of demos and know that great games HAVE been played. I just think the games would be even faster and more dynamic without rail. Some other players share my concern.
Here is another point that I forgot to consider. To bunny jump optimally, you need to use a slightly different technique in promode. The rate at which you turn when you do your first strafe jump is a bit different as well. Perhaps some players don't want to have to convert back and forth and learn the ins and outs of both ways of bunny hopping. That of course isn't a complaint about promode, I am just pointing out that bunny hopping is different.
In any case promode is gaining in popularity and everyone should be thankful of that. It will probably continue to grow well into the future.
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"all rockets and shaft AND spam" might be an accurate description for 1on1 perhaps, but in 4on4 skills with other weapons matter a lot. If you look at e1m2 games for example you will often find great examples of co-ordinated shotgun rushes to overrun enemy rls. Top clans like LA show immense skill with the "useless for combat" weapons like ssg/sng.
I watched that cpm demo earlier btw, seemed like quite exciting fast paced gameplay (vq3 made far too little use of teleporters imo). Reminded me of aerowalk for qw in terms of the fast paced moving, take 1-2 shots before ducking behind cover and moving on. Spawnfrags were attacked extremely aggressively which is reminiscent of dm2 in qw. What the other maps are like I don't know, but with a decent cfg (does cpm have fullbrights?) so I didn't keep losing sight of the enemy in combat it might be quite a playable game..... if qw 4on4 didn't exist I could see myself giving it a serious try. |
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Yeah: TDM's a different story as far as weapons go, but it always is. You don't even look at Q1NG/Q2MG/Q3PG in 1v1, but when it's the ONLY weapon available to you, you learn to love it dearly. :)
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No it's not just a cynical ploy to get publicity for cpma v.1, honest. my original motivation was to shunt my friend Jjonez's column post off the top at CHWD :P and Jjonez, I hope I haven't been too rude to you :/.
But once I sat down and started to think about what to write about this issue came up and it is actually one that I have been thinking about for quite some time. However as HangTime correctly surmises (he's a smart cookie that HangTime) I use my usual bag of tricks (old and worn by now) to try and get the issue NOTICED and discussed.
And that kind of worked so well and good :). My point, in a nutshell, is to ask all you top-level QW players to please at least check out the great cpma 1vs1 demos coming out (hope there will be more but there is already a good back catalogue by now - check out Rat, matr0x, Apheleon for starters).
I do think it's terrible that you guys don't even bother to check it out. It's not that I want a pat on the head, it's that I think the games are good and well worth seeing and enjoying. And of course, if it inspires a few more talented QW players to give CPMA 1vs1 a go that would be "mission accomplished".
CPMA 1vs1 seems to me to be about at the point QW was pre-TGi. There are a few great players around who have never played each other on LAN. They often beat very talented opposition by very large margins, with a lot of amazing shots and moves. But the thing about CPMA 1vs1 that really interests me, and motivates me to want to yell out from the rooftop to you guys about it, is that I have the strong feeling that there is still a lot of room for gameplay development. There is still room to invent stuff and so I think a creative FPS player with good aim, strategic and tactical skills, and intuitive movement, could have a lot of fun with it.
Of course, I'm always arguing with arQon about QW :) I think the top 1vs1 QW players today play the game at an exceptional level. I find it interesting that, as fifi says (and I have enjoyed his games), "its teamplay that attracts most qwplayers, not 1on1". And HangTime says the same: "if qw 4on4 didn't exist I could see myself giving it a serious try". What this says to me is that maybe the QW 1vs1 on the same 3 maps is getting a little tired now. In the sense that maybe there is room for some growth in CPMA 1vs1.
Just check out the demos :). And finally, every promoder will know why I chose this demo as 'the one demo to watch'. It is indeed a beautiful game that deserves to live forever. I hope it's magic inspired you a little too. |
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aerowalk and ztndm3 have been discussed as possible maps which could become standard in qw, to add more variety. I believe they have been fairly standard in AU competitions for some time, but if for example Duelmania3 were to take them on board, then they could become "truely accepted" in the same way as blood run (whatever ztndm3 is called in q3)is a recognised map in q3 tourneys.
The idea of seeing for example mrlame vs hib on aerowalk is quite appealing for me...
... but this has all been talked about before and since by nature the QW scene is very wary of change it will probably never happen. I think custom maps are much less problematic to implement in duel tourneys than team competitions though. |
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First of all, all the weapons in QW has its GOOD use; even the AXE is importnat: axe-script :) The boomstick is sometimes the best long range weapon, certainly the most accurate one. Ok, the nailgun is kind of useless, but the SuperNailgun is superior in really close combats, only the shaft is better. A skilled player wouldnt say no thanks to a SuperShotgun if he is packed with an yellow armor when a RL dude attacks either. So saying that most weapons are useless is kind of LOL. Ok, so this is the case in 4on4, 1on1 is of course different, because the weapons used 95% of the time is shaft, rl and gl.
To Hooney; I really think it is a reason that ppl never let go QW, or dont bother to try something else. Personally, and maybe others agree on this, I have tried to play Q2, I tried Q3, and I have tried CPMA, and because ppl irl really said I was a caveman, I really tried to learn it and get the feel of it, I even used A LOT of time adjusting the fucking configs that made me nuts :)
Ok, you got the rail issue and diff weapons, I loved the chaingun and SSG in Q2, the Q2 SSG really is a great weapon. But Q3? only weapon you could like in Q3 if you compare it to QW is plasma and rail, but if you dont like those weapons, then there is NOTHING you can like better in Q3, sorry :|
But at the end of the day, there is one thing, and only one thing only it comes down to: P-H-Y-S-I-C-S!
AND NO OTHER GAME COMES CLOSE, NOT EVEN CPMA, OK?
...end of story
make quakeworld2 or give it up.
I tried it all, and I will choose shitassugly QW over sweetasspretty graphics any day.
Remember; the ELITE in QW are STILL DEVELOPING THE FUCKING GAME!
I now only ONE COMPUTER GAME that does the same; StarCraft.
StarCraft is a nationwide PRO game in Korea.
I am looking forward to that day when QW becomes the same; its only a matter of time. Why? The game has perfect gameplay: It cant die. Its impossible.
Thanks for your time :)
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I've played QuakeWorld for as long as I can remember (I was crying "quad in 10!" as I emerged from my mother), and I really can't see myself playing any FPS that has a similar style to QuakeWorld. The only one that's recently caught my attention is Natural Selection, and that's only due to previous experience with Aliens vs Predator, but it's a large teamplay game with objectives and a really cool atmosphere.
In the end, QuakeWorld has the best gib sounds. That's really all there is to it! :D
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>> Girly men (to paraphrase xhrl) won't even RISK becoming minnows when they know they can stay pike by hiding in their current pond.
the real manly thing is to do what my brother did, move from toplevel q3a tdm/1on1 to play qw versus people that have played the game for ages just for the simple reason that qw is alot more fun :D |
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| hehe, but if you really have chest of steal, you take the best q3 clan around and make them play an elite QW clan on dm2...gl hf :) |
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Can peopel read my collumn and comment and make death threats towards me? Hoony's article now has more comments than mine and it really annoys me.
thx |
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I'd have thought not having Q3 on one's hard drive is the best possible reason to not play a Q3 mod, heh very strange!
Hoony I do have to ask one thing, why has CPMA stopped trying to lure the Q2 players? Maybe there aren't any left but there was all this fanfare about Makaveli, Abuse and.. uuh Shub? on the original development team. With this update it seems like all you want is QW players.
A word of warning (ok maybe a paragraph): You were so overly-aggressive in marketing the original CPM (yes I know why you called it 'pro mode') that ppl were instantly put off it, me included. If you'd just called it 'Challenge Mode', the main turn-off of CPM would have evaporated overnight, but no, you stubbornly persisted with that PR disaster. It has taken until now when most of the then-Q3-players have retired that CPMA is picking up among Q3ers... with this attitude do you want to wait another 2 years for the QWers? Do you think Godsmurf would have written all those hilarious columns @ clanbase if it wasn't for the unnecessary spiel? If, as you say, you have a classy mod & dev team, let them do the speaking for you with their actions, instead of overshadowing them with all this Don King talk!
ANother thing that would be cool - we all remember the FF-ToT commentary that you did - it was amazing! DO some for CPMA, the current crop of shoutcasters could do with some healthy competition as it certainly seems to be quantity over quality I'm afraid...
Long point made short: try being nice to the ppl you want to woo! It would be a dreadful shame if the QW you have served so well remembered you as the guy who called them fuckers for not playing your game. |
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| how can you possibly slag off ZzJzZ, even in jest! He faithfully reported every CPMAx93-916-ZZR110 beta release in his column, which I think is/was one of ch-network's best, and exhorted ppl to play the game; he's obviously not millitant enough for you :P |
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> ... Q2 players? Maybe there aren't any left
Yeah, only about 4 times as many as play QW...
In their own way, they're as hidebound as QW'ers though: for Q2'ers it's the pace of the game that tends to be the shock; for QW'ers it's the depth; but both have just too much to learn for most "diehard" players of a different game to be willing to pick up, just as there aren't exactly hordes of CS'ers flocking to it and the VQ3 transitioners have come over the course of years, one by one.
--
Props to the *one* QW player who did have the balls to try CPM today.
Of course he lost, and of course he posted minutes later that (based on his now-total knowledge of the game) "it?s nothing more than q3+bunny+a few new maps, and I'm going back to (something I don't lose at so much)".
As Whirl says, the parallels with VQ3'ers of 2 years ago are really quite shocking. :P
Not to put words in Hoony's mouth, but I think at least part of his post was "calling the QW'ers out" to see if any would actually rise to the challenge. My view was that the bulk of the current QW crowd have neither the skills nor the balls to play another game, because most of those who DO have those qualities are ALREADY playing something as well as / instead of QW.
Hoony asked: "Why is it that more top-level QW players do not play CPMA 1vs1?" but the question we're seeing answered here is "Why don't more QW'ers *in general* play CPMA?".
That's a very different kettle of fish, and judging by what's been posted here and on SD it's just what I'd expect to see: 15% "I just really do love QW that much", 5% "I tried; I got owned; QW SI TEH LAWWW!!1! (I ran away)", and 80% "QW SI TEH LAWWW!!1! (I ran away without even daring to try something else)".
Those who really ARE at the top level in QW generally don't bother to give their reasons (as opposed to the excuses that most of the other group makes) because they're not insecure enough to need to. That's why you don't see Reload, Locktar, etc posting in threads like this.
One of the things Hoony and I have argued over for years now is his rose-coloured view of QW.
I think he's stuck in a timewarp. Sure, there are a (very) few QW players that I'd actually like to see in CPM, but only a handful. My personal take is that the better players may well come to CPMA on their own if and when they outgrow or tire of QW, and if they don't then they don't: I can live with it either way. The rest will stay there until the last server dies, and that doesn't bother me either. :)
I'm not the romantic that Hoony is. I have no love affair with QW: I think it's a good game that for a couple of years was elevated to greatness by its players; but I'm a cynical realist and I see not merely the game itself, but also what's left of its "core" community, in the harsh light of day.
Hoony sees things a little differently though: I think he dreams of the FEELING of Kane/Lakerman, Reload/Harlsom, the TGI era, etc, somehow being brought to CPMA just by bringing *today's* top QW players into the game.
I think he's badly misjudging the situation, on two fronts: firstly, we're never going to have TGI again; but more importantly, players like rat, Apheleon, raven, Daler, half of Poland, etc etc have already taken CPMA beyond anything the current QW crowd (with a tiny number of exceptions) could hope to even achieve let alone add to, and they still have plenty of room to grow.
Good players and even just good sports will always be welcome in CPMA. Hoony's mistake is in thinking that QW still has many left to offer or willing to step up.
For the QW players who don't fit into my generalisations, sorry if this opinion of the state of "your game" bothers you. For the majority that do, well, I don't actually give a toss about you. :)
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never hire arQon for PR
you make me not want to even try it mate :|
get over the idea that people aren't playing it cos they lose at it or they're too much of a pussy to take up the challenge, k?
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think he likes to be amatuerpsychologist or something and cant see that there are totally different reasons to why not to play a game/mod...
people do like different things as well as different games, i dont like q3, not thanks to that i usually lose but i think the game have strange proportions and strange physics, dont like the weapons either and the graphics are horrible. losing have nothing to do with my dislike for q3
and to comment #51, actually i think ic (iCE cLIMBERS) would do fairly well in qw since they played it on a quite good level back in the days :} |
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arQon, Hoony et al:
First of all: I've never been afraid of trying other games, neither before or after IT arrived. Right now QW is the only game i play actively (as in at least an hour or two almost every day), but I've played Doom 1/2, Duke3d, Unreal, UT and Q3A on a competitive level, as well as dabbling in HL, CS, RTCW, UT2k3, BF1942 etc and also most rts, tbs and rpg games and some mud's. I regularly go to non-QW LANs and I know many of the top players in most of the big competitive games. I'd like to think of myself as being openminded about these things (or at least I try to be)
After reading through this column - which btw was quite amusing - I've decided to give cpma a serious try (I actually _do_ have Q3A installed, and it's not even pirated =)
So, what would be the best way to go about it (I already have latest CPMA installed) Where is the community? IRC, Web sites/forums, how do I find good servers (not just pingwise, I know how to use ASE) What are/Where can I find info on standard server settings, maps etc. Are there any good guides for quickly making a good cfg etc.
I know most of this is probably available somewhere on the web, but I don't really have the time and energy to hunt down what's current - in no small part due to all the effort preparing the next qhlan requires... who knows, if it really is as good as you say, there might be some quality CPMA-LANs in the future =) (DONT WORRY GUYS, THE QW-LANS ARE NOT GOING AWAY... just thought it'd be safest to clarify that =)
Oh, and about those remarks about QWs weapon balance... I think it's perfect, there is a weapon for every occasion (except maybe for those cowardly sniping-from-other-end-of-map sessions some people like =)
Axe - Great for when you want to really humiliate someone
Shotgun - Nag people from a distance (both 1v1 and teamplay), gang up on a lone rl guy, and of course finishing off someone with low health
Super shotgun - My absolute favorite for those berserk quadruns, and a really usable weapon in close quarters, especially when you're low on health
Nailgun - Mostly useful in close quarters or in water when you're low on shotgun ammo
Super nailgun - Best weapon in water, followed by SSG, also very useful for cornering people, and with quad as an alternative to shaft
Grenade launcher - Highly tactical weapon, nothing like it for smoking out campers, keeping someone off your tail etc
Rocket launcher - Allround the most useful weapon of course, but there are lots of occasions for which others are better suited
Lightning gun - Ultimate lpb ownage weapon
Granted, in most situations the last three are decidedly much more powerful than the others, but IMO that's a good thing. It means that weapon control is really important in most maps, and thereby adds other tactical elements to the game, requiring more mindwork from a successful player.
I guess even the few who are still reading this are getting bored, so I'd better stop babbling now, I should've been sleeping for hours allready anyway... nn! |
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zzjzz: sorry to draw attention from your column but that was an atrocious subject to invite argument over (especially when the argument was alwasy likely to degenerate) and I simply had to do something!
Whirl: I'm not calling QW players fuckers for not playing the mod, I'm calling guys like Jjonez and Apollyon (who I would expect to have an 'academic' interest at least) lazy bastards for not even bothering to check it out! You guys need to read stuff a little closer.
I also must disagree with you that ppl opposed the mod purely because of the name "promode" or any "PR" stuff I may or may not have engaged in. A lot of ppl such as godsmurf opposed it out of fear and ignorance - and a lot of other ppl also didn't want to see the project succeed regardless of what name it used because it was sacriligeous to "remake an id game" and heresy to suggest that top players should actually play it in place of Q3A in venues like the CPL.
Finally, this is just a random column update, not some 'new marketing direction' so I wouldn't read too much into it. The Q2 focus was important at that time because we wanted the mod to be representative of more than just the wishes of one Quake community. Nowadays it's not so impt because if any moron tries to claim it is a "QW remake" all one needs to do is point to arQon :).
Speaking of arQ, do you realise that the worst scenario imaginable for him would be that QW players got into CPMA 1vs1 and started dominating the game :P. He wants to scare you guys away! The problem for arQ is that when he says stuff like "players like rat, Apheleon, raven, Daler, half of Poland, etc etc have already taken CPMA beyond anything the current QW crowd (with a tiny number of exceptions) could hope to even achieve let alone add to", he's forgetting that Rat is a QW player :-?. |
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#56
"Hoony asked: "Why is it that more top-level QW players do not play CPMA 1vs1?" but the question we're seeing answered here is "Why don't more QW'ers *in general* play CPMA?". "
well, with english not being my first language i probably cant understand all the comments as well as you do, but i think hangtimes comment is quite clear why top-level qw players dont play cpma 1vs1 (yes!!! they prefer TEAMPLAY).
sure you could argue that its only his opinion, but im absolutely positive that its shared by ~90% of the so called elite players.
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Lornelin: www.promode.org has the mod and the map packs (top right), the community lives in #promode on QN and ETG. I don't know the best servers for your part of the world, but someone on IRC will. The readme has the basics of getting a config set up (HUDs, PM skins, etc).
I'm not forgetting rat's roots at all. Or czm's, or any of the top Euro CPM'ers who came from QW. What I'm getting it is that virtually all of those can and want to come over already HAVE.
I have no concerns about QW'ers "dominating" the game. The only way that could happen would be by stepping up their game and BECOMING CPM'ers when they play, at which point they'd be pretty damn interesting to see. :)
ZeRo4 was the undisputed world champ when Challenges started. That's "Best Q3 player in the world". He made a great showing, but despite his skills and some pretty serious practice, he's not going to win it either, because he didn't have enough time to fully adapt.
You can't win CPMA games against top competition by trying to play it like some other game. QW'ers who do still buy into the Godsmurf-myth of "CPMA is just QW for Q3" get their arses kicked EVERY TIME, because the game has simply evolved too far to be played the same way. It's like CS'ers thinking they can own in QW "cos they're both Q1, right?"
I'd actually be REALLY interested from an academic standpoint to watch two or more equal QW'ers to pick the game up at the same time and follow their progress through it, just as it's fascinating to watch VQ3'ers evolve. The first few games, they'd play a lot LIKE QW, but with neither one getting spanked the way they would against a CPM'er because both will make the same mistakes. (This may well be what prompts the "like QW but not as good" response among a lot of QW'ers, because their limits and preconceptions mean they only reach half the game's potential). Then one will discover something about the gameplay, or the movement, or whatever, and start winning until the other catches up or finds a counter, and so on.
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Lazy? Man, i have a league to organize which one could compare to running a flea circus at times. I play in a clan that is preparing to play in another league. And yes i play a lot of dules - in qw. On top of that i have a "real life", including a job, studying a natural science, girlfriend and friends. I am not like 15 years anymore and have 16 hours a day to play games. Nor do i, once again, have the interest to do so anymore.
And sorry i am not overly interested in CPMA. I read the news update about those duel tournaments just like i read news updates about cs/q3/ut/rctw/wc3 tournaments and that is it. Except that i always have to think "haha north american players showing their skill again getting owned by rat on ping 200".
But for you Hoony i will dig up my pirated q3 copy and watch at least one of those uber-elite demos which will surely blast be out of my pants. I am sure it will easily beat the excitement of a CPL CS tournament final (which i was lucky enough to witness as an admin once, lol). But will it beat going to irc in march '99, or watching Dag and Griffin play "cs" earlier this year? I will see. I will even jump around a bit on a server. That is if i find a good one in central europe. Which does not seem to be so easy according to what i have heared from other qw players on #smackdown trying cpma today/last night. And i am not eager to play on a server in poland-internet-ghetto (no offence).
Stop calling me lazy just because i am not interested in playing every "good" game. There are too many out there to play in my lifetime. And i havent even looked at every good one from the 80ies so give me a break goddammit.
arQon, are you really that lame or do you just want to provoke me (us)? How can you dare say that the bulk of todays lacks players skills and balls to play anything else than qw? That the really good players have "moved on"? That the majority of us is just afraid of loosing?
Stating that qw players lack balls and skills is just a blatant lie and you know it. It shows lack of respect as well. Not every qw player could be a top10 progamer. But the same can be said about cs players, cpma players and so on. The overwhelming majority of qw players simply loves the game. That is quite different from cowardice. And qw players are not worse than any other fps gamers. They are just as good/bad. For sure qw is deeper than any other popular fps games out there. CPMA might be just as deep pr deeper but i can hardly tell since i havent taken a look at it.
The good players havent moved on to other games. How many of the elite qw players of the past are still actively playing and/or successful in the newer games? I don't see any. Like many many other qw players they grew older, got bored, are working, play pokemon card games etc. We got new star players now who are just as good or even better. And a few of the old ones are still here with us in qw as well. Your argument of the good players having moved on is just not valid.
How can qw players be afraid of loosing in other games when 95% of qw players get owned every single day for six years now and still enjoy playing it? How do you explain that the few newbies we have here in germany, mostly coming from Q3, say they have never played such a good and fun game (and they have tried CPMA as well) as qw even though they have a really hard time even against the semi-retired duellist who last played competetive qw 3 years ago? Simply put, they enjoy playing qw and having fun is not measured in frags and win/loss efficiency arQon. And come on, everyone knows that it is much easier to win in Q3 or CS. Maybe it is harder in CPMA but qw players are not too dumb and unskilled to get into that as well - if they want to.
Your other statements show that you have no clue of qw and what is going on in the competetive qw scene so stop talking about things you obviously know next to nothing about. I don't try to claim who is hot and who is not in cpma either.
Reload and Locktar are for certain not at the top of qw. Neither in duel nor in tp. Reload does not play regularly anymore for years now apparently and he did not have the opportunity to prove he is among the top since TGI. Locktar was knocked out in the first or second round of each duel tournement he attended so far, both online and offline. Top duel players in qw atm are Dag, Griffin, Def,Insane, Paradoks (at leaston dm6) and a whole bunch of others. you can check a demo if you want to. And soon there will be Duelmania3 and QHlan5 which will produce even more impressive demos.
You are a bit optimistic to expect qw players still reading challenge-world. The site is quite dead, except for the tracker, for a few months now. But the fact they did not comment does neither mean they did not read it (which is rather likely now after pointing their noses on it on the smackdown site) nor does it mean they have no opinion or the one you think they have. They just chose not to voice it, like 90% of the readers everywhere on challenge i guess, just like other choose not to play cpma.
Q2 having 4x the players of qw? Where do you get these figures? If there really are four times as many players in Q2 (i dont doubt Q2 still has more players than qw, simpley because it had a larger amount of total players at its peak than qw) they are damn quit. Havent read a Q2 news in ages except that post by Hoony a few months ago. QW on the other hand makes it quite regularly even on the big sites.
My impression was that Q2 dropped dead the day Q3 came out. At least here in germany.
Which brings me to the beloved Q3 which is also dying from my point of view. It now just a shadow of what it used to be like 2 years ago. And i somehow doubt that it will still have such a strong community like qw has right now when it grew just as old.
The popularity of Q3 has already greatly diminished, the community fragmented into ra3 (well ok it is cpma now but still rocket arena), rctw, osp, ctf and promode. Yet you seem to expect that CPMA gets TEH GAME because it is so good. This is just a dream that won't come true. It won't happen with qw either. Like you pointed out so well, people tend to "move on". The majority of (young) players gets interested in in the newer games and they move on to play these. Quite a lot seem to be blinded by the prospect of earning money by playing games so they play where the money is and it wont certainly be at CPMA or qw. Many of those that made the Q3 scene so strong just grew older and dont play anymore due to real life (tm). Same as in qw and every other game.
The bottom line is CPMA will never grow as popular as you'd like to. People want to play new games and the bulk of players will always move on to these. However if it is really as good as you claim then odds are good that it will survive long with a healthy community just like qw does. But like i always say to the fuhquake-mqwcl-happy-crowd. It is not a client that makes a game. It is the community and the competition. From what i can see CPMA lacks here. I see just 4 links to tournaments on the promode site. And only one of them seems to be going on. In poland CPMA is quite successful already but elsewhere? Still trying to promote it by invite 1on1 tournaments.
QW is still going very strong in europe. In australia people are hampered a bit by lame isps but they are still playing there. North America is as lame as ever. Team tournaments are being started in chile and brazil. On ASE i see servers in china, japan, cuba, iran, africa with players on them. The game is six years old. I rest my case.
CPMA most serious flaw is not the railgun or tdm not working well. CPMA is too late. Q3 appeared in 99 and now by the end of 2002 it is finally nearing being finished. I supported the idea and project of Hoony from the start on because we all knew early on that Q3 would be even more disappointing than Q2. CPMA was (still is?) supposed to be
like how Q3 should have been out of the box: suited for competetive play. But you missed the right time. A few months after the release by idsoftware would have been the right time, now it is way too late to achieve with it what you wanted to however good it is.
Man, this is a long rant. I could have spent the time creating some kickass coverage for SD5 while you reading it could have spent thinking about why tdm is still flawed in CPMA or how to make it more popular without calling parts of the players you are aiming for ignorant, lazy and dumb fools without skill.
You are offending qw players and the game itself here. I love this game, i have put a lot of time, work and passion into helping it make what it still is today. And every qw player did contribute his own part. Even if he is just the annoying camper in e3m6 ffa. As long as i am still active and involved with qw and if anyone, even if it be arQon the 37337 all knowing coder of cpma or Hoony or anyone else, famous, important or not says that we and our game sucks then i will retaliate. Anytime, anywhere. |
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| Can anybody tell me what exactly is the problem with tdm in cpma? I haven't tried it, but I see no obvious resons to why it should not be as good as the 1on1s... Is it the maps? (fixable) Or is it the feeling of ffa? (wich qw also has, atleast the first couple of years you play it...) |
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HangTime was reading my mind when he wrote that #35 post. Good thing too, I wouldn't have remembered half of it with my faltering memory. There're only so many hours in a day, and I'm happy to spend them with people I have met on my first ever LAN back in '97.
You (and I'll be adressing Hoony and his cronies) seem to think (or like others to think at least) that ever since the Challenge Pro Mod was first talked about, QW hasn't changed. It has, both in-game and around that. Strategies have been refined. I admit they mostly haven't changed dramatically, but what do you expect for a 7 year old sport?
It's true that many QW players often oppose changes (e.g. there are a few well deocumented examples of leagues resisiting new devellopements), but the game still evolves. KTeamPro or fuhquake aren't signs of a community that isn't interested in FPS design. Some changes are instantly accepted, others ferociously rejected and still others QW players just grow used to over time. It may not be as well organised (much to my personal dismay) or even visible as CPMA devellopement, but quite a few people have been and are still busy refining QW. You do realise that -in Europe at least- we now have 3 rather active team leagues going on; up from the single one running two years ago.
As for me personally, I've always had an interest in CPM and the way it has been implemented, you know that of course. If you'ld go back to my very first posts on the subject you'll see that I had some fundamental problems with it way back when. Those haven't magically gone away. Even if QW and CPMA were exactly as exciting to me, with teammates and all, I would pick QW over CPMA. That's because I like competitive gaming to grow for some time to come, even if I'm not an active part of it. But if I haven't already I'ld bore everyone to sleep by going into that - again.
I wouldn't refuse to have a look at CPM if it was installed on someones computer at some LAN (haven't been to any in a long, long time). You can blame me for not actively trying to get my hands on it. Fine, I can see your point but I can live with the guilt for now.
I don't quite get why you focus on 'top'-players though. Frankly, when I first read that I simply couldn't come up with one single name of an active individual star QW player. To me, nobody sticks out with a reputation (in-game at least), so, to me, nobody has anything to lose anyway. QW seems to have grown past the phase where the retirement of one player makes or breaks the enjoyment of the others. While I do see the value of heroes in sports, it hardly bothers me to have few in my passtime, which I'ld rather enjoy with peers.
Don't get taken in by the name of your own game (not that I have a problem with that name, unlike others). Every competition needs its supporters at the side line; the hobyist who understand exactly what's going on on the field or the board and who can get excited with the mere anticipation of action. For the time being it will be they who organise the tournaments and run IRC channels and it's only they who can spread the word and get others interested in your cherised top players and.
As for arQon, he doesn't make too much sense in this thread nor should anybody expect him to. He throws a tantrum whenever he sees a Q and a W in eachothers vicinity. I blame his unhappy childhood, dominated by a sligtly retarded family member, known to us only as aunt sequel. And what's with the fishing pond fetish anyway?
Hoony of course was well aware about exactly which kind of comments he'ld get here. So this one was basically a big but rather enjoyable waste of time. To think I could have spent it flaming the inventor of professional gaming on Cached instead.
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| if you think good qw players are to stubborn or cowardice to play other games then qw how come i played counterstrike for 2 years and i enjoyed it alot except for the community and all cheats omfg wonid cheater! 8), and now the latest months i have been playing reactionquake3 its a damn great game that every player should try if you like teamplay or just own by yourself if u are skilled enough :), and its also have been 2 tournaments in it some weeks ago 1on1 and 2on2 both was double elimination oh and i forgot to say i did not lost a single map so to say all skilled players left qw is really lol and the best player ever is still there "griffin" and then we have the cpma which is also plays sometimes but i can't really find the same satisfaction in cpma as in qw,cs or rq3 and also urban terror is a great mod for q3 8) |
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> Yet you seem to expect that CPMA gets TEH GAME because it is so good.
No, I expect just the opposite. Always have.
> CPMA most serious flaw is ... too late
Agreed. CPM was quite a bit more timely (though also too late to really have an impact back then, given that the VQ3 scene was at that time looking far more promising on many fronts than any game to date).
It's the price you pay for actually getting things right: it takes time. Now that someone has actually STUDIED what does and doesn't work in FPS gameplay, and done so through real experimentation rather than just "I MAEKS TEH XYZ CLONE COS XYZ SI TEH GRATEST!!11!"; and backed it up with years of games where you can see the evolution and the flaws in each stage of the design, the next CPM-style project (it won't be us that does it, but someone will someday for another game) will have a huge head-start.
> now it is way too late to achieve with it what you wanted to however good it is.
You're confusing me with Hoony. He wanted it to take over the world. I just wanted it to be better than everything else. I've acheived EXACTLY what I wanted to with it.
> are you really that lame or do you just want to provoke me (us)?
Neither, or both, depending on your point of view. I like to rattle cages at times, but I do it mostly on the offchance that someone will argue for the game on its actual merits rather than just the usual "QW SI ROXOR! YUO ARE TEH STOOPID!"
Never happens, but the possibility is there.
I *really don't care* if what I've said gets you bent out of shape, for all that I didn't make either of the statements that you're trying to claim I did. If you're THAT much of a fanboy that you take it personally when someone points out flaws in "your" game, which you've had no part in (and I'm talking about the game: I understand what you do for its community), then you have enough problems already.
#64: maps mostly suck. VQ3's maps aren't even suitable for *VQ3* TDM: they're 6-player FFA maps, and even after Abuse reworking them to at least get them playable for that, they're still too small and too simple to work well in a faster and less cessy game. We basically ignored TDM for about 2 years while focusing on the dynamics of 1v1 play, so nobody mapped for it. :/
With TDM Leagues now running in EU and NA, that's changed, and we're seeing some great player-designed TDM levels like NODM2 show up.
I have doubts about the supposed quality of QW TDM. Smackdown keeps it alive, but in terms of actual teamplay and appeal TF is eating its lunch and has been for years. That's more a reflection on TDM as a whole though rather than QW-specific: I think there's little question at this point in time that "classic" TDM is a niche and class/objective-based teamplay will continue to dominate.
Jjonez: yes, fuhquake is proof that the QW community is "interested in FPS design". After all, everyone knows that a prettier client is what drives gameplay.
FFS...
I don't actively bait QW'ers just because I like watching insecure people freak out: that's simply a side-effect of them being presented with opinions that they can't handle.
Those players who stick with QW because they truly think it's great may well respond here to extol the game, but they do so calmly. (tezz, HangTime, etc)
Those who know damn well that they stay with QW simply because they CAN'T move on for whatever reason (be it lack of skill, fear of change, too invested, etc) make comments like #14 and #48. I find them funny rather than pathetic: YMMV.
I'm HAPPY that there are enough of both types to keep QW alive. The time may come that I find myself in the same position as Ap/Jjonez with a game, at which point I'll also be hoping that the game survives past its expiration date.
#34 said it extremely well, and very succintly.
"Just accept it: some Quakeworld players are Quakeworld players and not FPS gamers. It doesn't matter if a better game comes out."
I think we accept the truth of that, but we keep fighting against it nonetheless. I blame Hoony's idealistic side. :)
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As I read this thread, I see ppl who really does not know much about the QW community speak about QW and QW players.
Remember this; QW is not a "pro" game, like CS or Q3A. We dont make money on it, there are no competitions that offer good cash in this game, excpet qh-lan, who actually does that.
Ask your self this; do you think CS and Q3A would have been what it is today without the "hype" they have got, like CPL for example?
What happens to CS and Q3A when there is no more big money to win in these games?
What happend to QW you already know, QW will stay forever, nomatter how "poor" we are.
So you have to ask yourself this;
whye do QW still have such a strong community, when there are no money in it and "everybody" who does not play QW thinks all QW'ers should "move on"?
Answer:
Because the game is FUN. It is more FUN the most games ever released.
As Apollyon says that there are QW-newbies in Germany, this is not strange, because when ppl just TRY QW, they can quickly figure out for themselves that this is a game that is really fun.
The only reason that QW aint as big as CS is one reason only; money and promotion: AND THATS ALL. I know this is a bold statement, but the reason QW lives on is simply the fact that not many games are more fun, its just that simple, and will not get into why, because that has been explained so many times in detail before.
If you had the amount of money and promotion in QW as you got in CS, QW would be just as big, or bigger.
This is a fact, not a stupid dream or a diary from a madman. QW is just the coolest playable FPS game you evern can play; pure and simple.
Agree or Disagree, but as Apollyon said: It is 6-7 years old, and is still evolving, in every aspect; it speaks for itself.
Of course you CPMA'ers and Q3'ers envy us, who wouldnt?
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Someone said here that we will never see another TGI. lol? There have already been many more events that put TGI far behind. TGI is like: "it was all better in the old days!", and I start to laugh everytime someone brings up TGI as an example, it just shows that you really dont have a clue about todays QW community. Its like Pele, Beckenbauer and Cruyff compared to Ronaldo, Zidane and Beckham. lol, plz stop it.
I want to remind you taht qh-lan #4 had over 100 000 demo downloads, I dont think that the 200 ppl at qh-lan #4 DL all that...
Only reason ppl remember TGI so well, was the good promotion it had, and that there where fewer FPS games at that time. And that time was also very different times, compared to now. Today, TGI demos are nothing more than old "black/white" movies where you see Bobby Charlton nail Germany to the wall in the soccer final of 1966; really boring and outdated. Go show JohnC a Locktar-MrLame demo on dm2, and he will say; "wow, I guess that opensource did good for that game!" ....he will be just as stupid and have just as little knowledge of the game as many others have.
Here is another statement that makes me laugh:
arQon said;
"I have doubts about the supposed quality of QW TDM"
I good thing you say "doubts" and not "I know", coz you dont have a clue
:)
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As I read this thread, I see ppl who really does not know much about the QW community speak about QW and QW players.
Remember this; QW is not a "pro" game, like CS or Q3A. We dont make money on it, there are no competitions that offer good cash in this game, excpet qh-lan, who actually does that.
Ask your self this; do you think CS and Q3A would have been what it is today without the "hype" they have got, like CPL for example?
What happens to CS and Q3A when there is no more big money to win in these games?
What happend to QW you already know, QW will stay forever, nomatter how "poor" we are.
So you have to ask yourself this;
whye do QW still have such a strong community, when there are no money in it and "everybody" who does not play QW thinks all QW'ers should "move on"?
Answer:
Because the game is FUN. It is more FUN the most games ever released.
As Apollyon says that there are QW-newbies in Germany, this is not strange, because when ppl just TRY QW, they can quickly figure out for themselves that this is a game that is really fun.
The only reason that QW aint as big as CS is one reason only; money and promotion: AND THATS ALL. I know this is a bold statement, but the reason QW lives on is simply the fact that not many games are more fun, its just that simple, and will not get into why, because that has been explained so many times in detail before.
If you had the amount of money and promotion in QW as you got in CS, QW would be just as big, or bigger.
This is a fact, not a stupid dream or a diary from a madman. QW is just the coolest playable FPS game you evern can play; pure and simple.
Agree or Disagree, but as Apollyon said: It is 6-7 years old, and is still evolving, in every aspect; it speaks for itself.
Of course you CPMA'ers and Q3'ers envy us, who wouldnt?
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| ...fucking CH network double postshitlagdicksdfepfjsldkfmsdf!!! |
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I have promode installed on my computer for, hmm, well over 18 months. I installed it not long after it came out.
Unfortunately I dont have any access to low latency broadband thanks to my local teleco (telstra) so I dont even play qw anymore. Even if I had cable/adsl I would favour qw over cpma. However, would still play cpma because I have always liked it but simply put, it is not good enough to make me leave qw for cpma. Thats my opinion and cpma fans can criticise me for it but it won't change my opinion nor does it make them right.
While I don't feel CPMA is better than QW, I agree that you can play both and I would if I could but there are reasons qw'ers stay qw'ers.
Time is a factor, a lot of qw players are older now, have jobs and have a lot less time and energy to devote to computer games. Its just not having time to play cpma its having the energy and dedication to learning a new thing. If that makes us cowards or lazy then so be it. After all we are just talking about computer games. There are more important things in life. When you have limited time sometimes you don't feel like playing your 2nd favourite game.
Support, looking at the local Aus scene, things have been tough for CPMA. The Gamearena admins have been opposed to CPMA and what it stands. Aus online gaming is dominated by gamearena and CPMA has always gotten a cold shoulder. I know its better lately but the admins aren't big cpma fans.
LANS aren't much friendlier to CPMA from what I can see. I've yet to see one CPMA lan targeted at qw players.
I dont think anyone can make a mod and then say 'look, heres this mod we made for you. You are obliged to play it' and then sit back and expect to play. The designing and making of a game/mod is not the only work needed. Promoting and convincing people is the other part. Unfortuanly promode never had backing from the CPL or the engine designer (id software) so you have to be realistic in your expectations of the mod.
If you want people to play promode, promote it harder and better. If you dont have th time or the resources to promote, it sorta gets back to my point about qw players not having the time/energy to play it.
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arQon, I'm happy that you have a sense of achievement, that you made CPMA into what you felt it should be. But don't be so presumptuous to assume that your goal, or your idea of the perfect game is what everyone should consider to be the ultimate good. I like the way CPMA was designed; the methods gave it a high chance of succeeding to be a decent competitive game. But to me it's not the ultimate platform, not at least until some non-gameplay related issues are solved. And even if I'm fond of the QW gameplay, I'm also happy with QW, since it doesn't have those problems anymore (or at least in principle allows them to be overcome).
You expect people not to care about you when you state your opinions. But then why do you expect people to care about other peoples opinions when they playing a simple game? That's what all your arguments against the QW community are based on. And all your arguments are against that, not against the game. Exactly which flaw in the game did you point out? Not that there aren't any, but I wouldn't expect you to be sufficiently familiar with QW to know anyway.
To say none of the QW players ever had any part in the game itself is plain dumb. It were QW players who programmed proxies, QW players who made mods and QW players who now make new clients and servers. As I already said, it are QW players who accept or reject any of those because, yes, they all do impact gameplay. And you very clearly don't have the first clue about what fuh has been upto with his client beyond the fancy graphics. But I don't expect you to care. If he'ld let me, I'ld take offence at that statement in his place.
If anyone is acting insecure it would be those who get all itchy when they don't see their enthousiasm for something mirrored by everyone, including those they deeply despises.
Why would you find yourself ever hoping to keep CPMA alive? Are you afraid that, at some point, you wont find any competition to take part in since everyone moved on to a game you're unable to cope with? Or are you merely afraid that newer game won't be as much fun?
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I think it's fantastic that Jjonez and Apollyon are going to dust off the old copies of Q3A that they didn't have (or borrow one from someone) and actually check out a few demos of CPMA 1vs1. And HangTime did so already. Thank you guys! Merry Christmas to you too. You are the BEST.
I hope you let me/us know what you think and maybe some other QW players will do the same. That's the idea. Nothing too radical, just check it out. Get used to having it on your h/d, get some kind of setup going (um, there are "pm-skins" which are like fullbrights, and force model/force colours etc are all there - has anyone got like some basic cfg settings for these guys?). Read the readme doc and changelog!
The state of the 1vs1 scene in QW vs TDM is also very interesting or perhaps, not very interesting. Kind of another subject in itself. As numerous ppl keep repeating, TDM seems to be where it's at in QW atm. Duelling just doesn't seem to have the profile that it once did. Whereas, in CPMA duelling is interesting atm. So maybe if there are any QW players who enjoy duelling they could think about trying it for a change. There you are.
Now in terms of watching demos. You guys have to sit straight in your chair and watch the whole damn thing, k? None of this sitting half-cocked looking out the corner of your eye (or through your fingers). And you have to watch more than just 1 or 2 demos. I'd say about 20 to be safe.
Now I know you are very busy QWers with lifes, girlfriends, leagues to run and all the rest, so there's no big rush you can take your time. But if you don't mind hurrying just a little you could catch Rat vs Apheleon this weekend LIVE - the grand final of Challenges-US. If you get things setup quickly enough, and hop on #challenges and #promode on ETG and QuakeNet, you will find a large GTV audience and shoutcast commentary. There's also another CPMA 1vs1 tourney taking place this weekend in the US with invited players - it's not a bad idea to hang out with the ppl in #promode and watch this stuff "live". You know, get used to the language, the nicknames, start feeling at home...
You will have to upgrade your ancient copy of Q3A to the latest "patch" - soz bout that.
As for the demos, well I would first check out some from the recent Challenges-EU tourney that Rat won. Here's the brackets so you know wtf went on:
http://www.challenge-eu.com/challenges/data/winner.htm
CPM3 and CPM1a games are also the best, imo. Ztn1 games can be a little, how should we say, zzzztn. FFdm2 games are interesting but definitely to see what's going on in terms of CPMA 1vs1 gameplay check out CPM3 and CPM1a - they have the most evolved gameplay and are the 'hardcore' maps. In Challenges-EU there are also some great games played on q3aero. Some of the nicest were between matr0x and UK QW player mekon I thought.
Otherwise Rat vs anyone on CPM3 and/or CPM1a will do. Look for the most downloads and the most comments on CHTV listings. Now as well as that you should most definitely check out Challenges-US and in particular Apheleon, who is an American player with a very distinct syle. You will see what I mean.
So you can see wtf is going on in that tourney here are the Challenges-US brackets:
http://www.0reality.com/challenges/challenges-win_bracket.html
and the Challenges-US webpage:
http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=challenges
And to save you some time, because I really want to help out, here are 5 good CPMA 1vs1 demos that I can recommend. You will only need CPM3 (in the map pack linked from the main article above) and an updated version of CPM1a which can be found here:
CPM1a
http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=filedetail&file=4
Demos:
rat vs toxter, CPM3 (Challenges-EU, good CPM3 ownage demo)
http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=demodetail&demo=17187
matr0x vs rat, CPM3 (Challenges-EU final)
http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=demodetail&demo=17247
apheleon vs Daler, CPM1a (Challenges US semi-final)
http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=demodetail&demo=17109
apheleon vs D|S-cha0ticz, CPM3 (Challenges-US, nice ownage demo showing aph's style)
http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=demodetail&demo=16214
matr0x vs ZeRo4, CPM3 (LAN game, Korea, absolute ownage demo showing why playing on LAN would make a big difference to all these games / demos and also why matr0x rocks)
http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=demodetail&demo=16918
Now a final point about these demos. They are all, with the exception of the matr0x vs z4 game in Korea, played over the Net. The gameplay is in the process of being developed as you see it. This is what is really interesting imo. The fact that it has taken a good couple of years for the gameplay to develop in CPMA - and it still clearly has a lot of room for growth.
It's why I genuinely wondered if there might not be a few QW players with the skills who wanted to give it a go. Cuz there is actually something going on and something interesting happening with it.
Anyway, thx again for at least checking it out and being such good sports and taking the time to debate the issues. Always an interesting discussion to be had with you guys :) |
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| You know, I still had a gift certificate lying around from last year that I urgently had to spend today. In the CD-rom games departement, for a split second, I even considered buying a copy of Q3. Luckily they didn't have it in stock and I bought Sudden Strike II instead. Maybe next year :P |
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I dont mind ppl promoting CPMA over QW, I dont mind at all. Just try and be as objective as you can, if that is possible with subjective views :)
Hoony said:
"The state of the 1vs1 scene in QW vs TDM is also very interesting or perhaps, not very interesting. Kind of another subject in itself. As numerous ppl keep repeating, TDM seems to be where it's at in QW atm. Duelling just doesn't seem to have the profile that it once did."
If you are talking about promotion, marketing and world wide exposure, sure, then TGI was the better thing, no doubt. But if you are talking about anything else, then plz keep your comments down under.
http://www.challenge-eu.com/smackdown/north/columns/link/
Maybe some ppl that forgot how entertaining QW duels are needs to read these last 2 columns from this dude?
The demos linked to this column are duels after YEARS of practice. Can CPMA or any other game find duels that can match this?
I think not.
And yes, I will look at the CPMA demos Hoony just described, but will you and Hoony look at the demos I just gave you?
btw; you have NOT seen anything like this; its the best vs the best with 14ms at LAN, after 6 years of evolution. CPMA has just been born compared to this.
Enjoy
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Unfortunately i don't know where to get a legal copy (including cd key which is what matters as i have been told on #promode) for a reasonable price in germany. So i will have to stick with watching demos and playing on non-punkbuster servers but i will give it a shot this weekend.
A question Hoony. Does your daughter still enjoy watching qw demos? Or did she move on to cpma already? |
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You guys just always say, QW is better, cpma is better.
But why do you think it is better? Isnt the whole
discussion useless when you dont talk about the game
itself? Only thing you say is, the game is so good or sux.
BUT WHY ?
What is so special in cpma that QW hasnt?
Why do you think cpma should attract people more than QW?
Why is the gameplay better?
Is it really better to have a lot of equal weapons than to have just 2 dominating ones?
Why do you think cpma is more fun, more exciting to watch?
If you have reasons we can discuss them. But only telling other people my game rulz yours sux is really nonsense...
I would like to see comments from cpma players why they think cpma is better than QW and the other way arround.
Maybe someone can point out this in detail?
Thanks. |
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The reason CS is more popular than QW isn't soley down to money and promotion. From a technical standpoint it also has superior graphics (ok, so fuhquake narrows the gap) and is easier to configure, with built in menus to set stuff up including voice communications I believe. Also you don't require such a good connection as in qw due to the slower pace of the game and dubious client side hit detection stuff. Another reason would be related to what aaQon raves on about, the fact that playing QW is very, very hard for newbie players since you will get totally dominated by seasoned veterans. Even relative "newbies" such as myself have been playing the game for two or more years and hence QW has a higher proportion of "competant/skilled" players relative to CS. Make no mistake, most people prefer winning to losing and thats certainly easier to achieve on the average CS server compared to the average QW server. Having said all that, yes, all the promotion and money in CS is a major (not ONLY as you suggest) factor in why its so popular.
The suggestion about following two QW'ers progress making the transition to CPM would be interesting, agreed. Often when choosing to play a new game I play with people I know from QW to start with, since as you say you can appreciate the basics of the gameplay before moving on to the advanced stuff - play a seasoned pro and you get spanked so much you can't even learn the basics.
arQon, you clearly have a passing knowledge of QW but lacking in some depth in my opinion, clearly demonstrated by this statement:
"yes, fuhquake is proof that the QW community is "interested in FPS design". After all, everyone knows that a prettier client is what drives gameplay.
FFS... "
This is EXACTLY the same kind of attitude you critisise regarding QW'rs making sweeping generalisations about CPM being "qw remade for q3". FUHQUAKE IS NOT JUST A PRETTIER VERSION OF QWCL. Thats what you see immediately, just like a non-petrolhead (i'll resist the temptation to say woman) seeing a glamourous sports might say "wow that looks really nice!" without knowing anything about the inner workings and attributes of the actual vehicle. Non-graphical improvements fuhquake makes to QW include, but are not limited to:
-Integrated client/server allowing listen servers in qw including single player
-enhanced networking including bunnyhop prediction for hpws and fixing a bug in the QW scoreboard packetloss reporting.
-numerous general bug fixes in QWCL
-enhanced mouse smoothing, and direct support for 8 button mice like mx500
-qwz/mvd playback including demo capture for making movies
-advanced scripting/trigger options
-priority control from within client to help winXP players (qwcl is bugged under winxp and certain video modes)
-better refresh rate control
-teamplay features like LEDs changing dependant on health etc.
--ruleset commandline parameter to disable certain features disallowed in leagues
-closed source security module to make cheating more difficult
-fps features to improve performance on low-end machines
-nice config control from within client
Of course, you might suggest that most of these aren't gameplay related. Well, personally I find gameplay is better if I have less lag, more fps, smooth mouse with more buttons and my opponents aren't cheating. Some of the trigger/teamplay scripting stuff could definitely directly affect gameplay (personally i'm not sure if this is a good thing). And please bear in mind, fuhquake is just a client, it's really the server/mod which controls gameplay aspects the most. ktpro+mvdsv makes kteams+qwsv look like what it really is, a 3 year old mod for a 6 year old game. If i was to sit here and describe all the bugfixes and gameplay/spectator enhancements made by ktpro/mvdsv I would probably find myself banned from challenge network for excessive bandwidth usage. Some of the stuff in ktpro I have yet to see in any other FPS, so its definitely falls into the "FPS design" category.
There is a little truth in some of what you say about "Those who know damn well that they stay with QW simply because they CAN'T move on for whatever reason (be it lack of skill, fear of change, too invested, etc)" but the statements about this is a "MAJORITY" view together with the "inferiority of QW" overshadow this. You must admit to being hugely biased; as one of the primary developers behind CPM, it will be tailored to what YOU consider good gameplay.
Personally I find QW TDM gameplay vastly superior to class based like TF. Everyone starts equal and not only do you need excellent teamplay but also tremendous skill to compete at the highest level. Don't be fooled by the blatant deficiencies in Q3TDM, which seems to revolve solely around stacking players together in groups to defend RA/attack quad (depending on map, obviously). QW 4on4 has great variety in that its more dependant on specific tactics and short sections of play than overall strategy - of course thats important but maps can be won on lost on individual pieces of brilliance too. I'm rapidly digging a hole for myself here but I guess I'm trying to say that teamplay in QW is very dynamic and fast paced, and you don't need voice comms to acheive that in qw (witness FS/SR for proof). You get killed by 3 things in QW: skill imbalance, teamplay imbalance, or luck imbalance. There are no different classes to blur the lines here, games aren't won or lost before it actually starts. But most of all, QW 4on4 retains the raw excitement of furious deathmatch (quad run carnage, dm3 hill madfragging and speedy movement) while still allowing teamplay to flourish. Aggressive application of skill is rewarded, but do so at the expense of teamplay issues (fraghunting at bridge when RA isnt safe) can often be foolhardy. All the time you have decisions to make, you can't sit back for minutes deciding what to do. Should I attack the next quad and risk dying? Are my teammates capable of holding RA while I go and help at YA? Have I got enough time to wait for RA before moving to pent? These are situations every QW player will be familiar with and they will appreciate the short time span in which they occur.
But enough justification of QW, I'm preaching to the converted on one side and the devil on the other, it won't make any difference either way. One question I'd like to ask; if, as you say, QW is so inferior to CPM, then why does Rat (who you have classed as a top CPM player) still compete actively in QW 4on4? All your arguments about QW players being scared, lack of skill etc are invalid here. Rat is a Pike in CPM, and I don't know, a salmon or something in QW (neither a minnow nor a pike). |
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Thanks Hoony, that's the kinda stuff i wanted...
Apo: I'm gonna buy the Q1/Q2/Q3 combo pack when i find it somewhere, so then i could send you my old q3-cd with key and everything if you want. |
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| q3 doesnt require a cd key anymore, auth servers have been down forever. |
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| Why not put it like this. Arqon, stick to your game, we will stick to ours. |
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| I know you haven't needed a cd key for a while, but i thought that requirement came back with 1.32? At least i couldn't connect to most servers after installing 1.32, and when i dug out my cd key it worked again... |
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"Smackdown keeps it alive, but in terms of actual teamplay and appeal TF is eating its lunch and has been for years."
As a long long time TF player and I suppose long time TDM player now (yaya smackdown 2..) I'd have to say that TDM requires way more teamplay + teamplay skill than TF :
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| Tnx ArQon, you?ve really convinced me, I will never EVER try cpma again, ever, and I really hope that noone else does so that perhaps someday you and you?re fucked up attitude will leave the fps-scene for good. |
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| everything else then qw.. thats the rule #1 and person involved in other games seriusly like cs, q3, q2, and whatever are gays. thats the rule. |
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#78 - Here's MY take on things, condensed massively. Most of the gameplay stuff has been covered in the CPMA forums, and I'm not going to retype literally thousands of pages here to prove a point when it would be wasted effort anyway: I'll just toss my conclusions out and watch the knee-jerk denial of them with no thought. :P
1 > What is so special in cpma that QW hasnt?
Depth.
More ways to come back or have to guard against; more genuine options available to you in combat; more options at all combat ranges; more ways to OPEN combat, etc etc. Even the hated railgun serves an otherwise-unacheivable purpose in DM.
More potential in the movement, which already realises more of that potential than even the most maxed-out QW player can in QW. Shambler's video is probably the best example: it's over a year old but still cruises past, say, DDE in terms of showcasing some of what's possible.
2 > Why do you think cpma should attract people more than QW?
Basically comes down to (a) it's a better "serious" game because it has much more headroom and variance than QW, and (b) it's more fun as a casual game too.
NO IT ISN'T! QW SI TEH GRATEST!
tis so
TIS NOT
etc
:P
3 > Why is the gameplay better?
See above
4 > Is it really better to have a lot of equal weapons than to have just 2 dominating ones?
No. Both those approaches suck ass: the first by removing a key piece of control (also somewhat lacking in dmm3) and the second by devaluing things that COULD be used to widen the gameplay but instead are just appendixes. Both oversimplify the game, just in different directions.
5 > Why do you think cpma is more fun
Fun's a bit too subjective, but for me it's probably (in rough order) having so many more options in the movement gives you all sorts of things to try and new combinations to discover (moving in CPMA is kinda like playing Street Fighter); then the melee elements (one of the pieces that we DID draw on QW for) like bouncing people miles into the air then shafting them upwards until they gib, or all the usual midair rocket/nade/etc stuff, tho with the added joy of air-railing someone and them KNOWING it's coming :P; playing as an HPB and winning because I'm smarter rather than losing solely because I can't compete with a guy who has 100ms better ping than me and an overpowered LG that takes no skill to use with that kind of conn. :/
6 > more exciting to watch?
Pretty much the same reasons as 1 and 5.
Except on ZTN, in which case I'd generally rather put my nuts through a meat grinder than actually watch the game. (Think DM2 NQ played by 50-year old men on ludes).
#79 - No, I haven't played QW in a LONG time, and I don't follow it any more either. I'll watch demos of Locktar and a couple of other "entertaining" players every once in a blue moon, but that's about it.
You can't class ANY of the fuh stuff as "gameplay" and you damn well know it (single player listen servers = gameplay, wtf) with the possible exception of a couple of HUD tweaks and the trigger thing (whatever tf that is - sounds kinda weaksauce: 'mm2 "Q in 10" @t+20', that sort of thing?). Technical improvements are one thing, and they're all well and good. Don't front by trying to pass them off as anything other than that though.
I don't have to admit to any sort of bias, let alone to "being hugely biased": I got involved with CPM *because* it's a better game than NQ/QW/Q2/Q3/whatever. It isn't "tailored to my choice of gameplay" (there are aspects that I disagree with, usually rather loudly :P) but it's not my role to MAKE those gameplay decisions. That's why we have a Design team.
> if QW is so inferior to CPM, then why does Rat still compete actively in QW 4on4?
You'd have to ask him, but it's implicitly partly because he's one of those people in the smaller group I mentioned: those NOT afraid to step outside QW and actually experience something new. As Hoony said right at the start of this, it's not an either/or situation. It does however require time, skill, and will.
#81 - they've been back up for months: the difference is that now servers can opt to be hardcore about checking keys, and most do.
I can't remember if GTV requires that check (I doubt it), and demos and local play certainly don't, so certainly anyone can at least check out the games Hoony linked.
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#85 you dummy, that's just what he wants! (see #60 for why)
#76 of COURSE I've seen those demos before, using my copy of fuhquake of course :) I've been saying all along that I think QW 1vs1 players are at an exceptional level and I'd like to see some of them play CPMA 1vs1. Actually I'd say one reason Rat is doing so well in CPMA 1v1 is because of the depth of 1vs1 experience he has from QW. If I could pick just one of those demos to illustrate the "level" they are at I would pick dag vs pietro, DM6.
#77 my daughter is into her own computer games - winnie the pooh, blue's clues, wiggles, tweenies. I can barely get on my own computer these days ...
#78 no Sonic I never said CPMA 1vs1 is better than QW 1vs1, I simply said CPMA 1vs 1 was good, getting better all the time, well worth looking into and worth playing especially by QW 1vs1 players who I think should particularly enjoy its gameplay characteristics. Not INSTEAD of QW 1vs1 but AS WELL AS. |
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*phew* i really read all stuff... :)
just one thing... it's worth to try it... even tetrinet is worth to be played some rounds :>
there is nothing u can loose... except some space on your hd for at least awhile .)
btw i'm more a q3 player. switched to cpma cuz it's imo more fun. i hadnt played qw before (q3) but i tried it and i play it sometimes... i even set up a qw-server wich i carry to lans (the server is goddamn sexeh btw ;)). it's usually the only qw server... but hey... at least there is one qw-server... and it's only there cuz i tried it :>
u need to test it (at least once) to know it. without knowledge of the topic u cant have a real opinion. i even played cs to be sure that it really sucks that much - well i was absolutly right in that case... but now i can say that it sucks cuz i really know it ;)
so... go ahead and test it... the worst thing, wich can happen, is that it doesnt make that much fun (on the other hand u have then some arguments against it) :> |
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| but can Rat say something now about this issue? I think at least an interview would be helpfull? Apo go! |
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| probably the best 22000 words i've read... :) |
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First things first i play qw & cpm they are both diffrent games but do have a few things in common, and both fun to play imo =) Secondly ignore arq's trolling of qw he was a q2 player ;)
CPM TDM is very good imo(im not saying that cos i run a cpm tdm either =p) the main problems are the maps imo most are were designed for normal q3 and cpm is alot faster and about map control rather than just one, two area control. How Hangtime described qw tdm is pretty much the same as cpm tdm is fast aggessive, our quad is more frequent and is true x4 quad not x3 like vq3. You also have to give constant information to team mates that only binds can do.
Also you have to think more on the move and also you dont have to stay in 'packs' all the time like vq3, but you do need to come together at times to retake an important area and quad. Theres an element of a single player being able to control an important area on his own, not just for himself but a place for team mates to drop back to. Alot of vq3 players feel cpm tdm is just ffa, which compared to vq3 this is true, but you still need TP cos if you lose control of some maps your gonna get 300-0 arse raped, you need tp to regain and keep control of maps. |
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So let's summarise:
On one hand we have the fanatic CPM players who believe that we are lazy for not trying their mod, despite the fact that a lot of us play other mods in other games, who believe CPM is superior in gameplay, design and implementation.
On the other hand, we have the CPM players who also respect and acknowledge why we continue to play QW over anything similar, but remain subtley persuasive in one form or another.
And on the...er...leg, we have the QuakeWorld players who have dabbled in CPM and consider it a possible alternative, but otherwise concentrate on QW.
Finally, we have the other leg which consists of diehard QuakeWorld players who have practically ignored CPM due to lack of interest, lack of knowledge or a simple decision that certain community members or certain aspects of the mod just don't seem appealing. I place myself in this category, for the latter reason.
CPM may be all arQon makes it out to be, or it might simply be another average Q3 mod - regardless of this, I don't see how any of us can slate either one of them. Attempting to leverage some sort of agreement from people by putting down their game is a lame way of winning an argument, and frankly it hasn't worked on a lot of people here, by what i've read. I've certainly been put off by arQon's comments, but I still remain certain that the rest of the CPM community are good people.
Oh and, gameplay involves everything you do and everything you use to do it, so huds, clients, servers and useful changes to functional sections of the game all improve gameplay. Anyone remember the old style binds with no leds, no location reporting and your full name in brackets before the message? Thank god we evolved from that.
In the end, it's all down to personal taste like pretty much everything else. I know one thing for sure though; Hoony has gained another regular reader for sure ;) |
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arQon, you make some pretty subjective claims about 'depth', 'more ways', 'headroom' or 'variance'. Comming from you they are outright empty claims since you don't know the game you're comparing to too well anyway. Sure, that depth has been expressely and painstakingly devised by a top team of knowledgable designers for CPM whereas whatever depth QW has is mainly the result of bugs. I think that, ironically, by having far less of a thorough design cycle, QW probably left more to the players to discover. If new tricks are still discovered for CPM 4 years from now, I think we'll be in a better position to compare the headroom.
As a sidenote, the excitement a game delivers isn't simply proportional to the complexity of it's rules. Simple rules don't stop players from varying the game, but instead encourage them to push the limits. Thats why I think TDM is more exciting then TF and the like, but sometimes you seem to disagree even with that.
(Again, I very much like how CPM was develloped. The proces should definately lead to some decent gameplay. But to just assume that the result is/will be unsurpassable is narrowminded.)
Has it ever occured to you that fuh doesn't need to make major gameplay adjustements because we're quite happy with how the game works already? CPM is comming out of beta soon I believe, so I guess you pretty much settled on some basic gameplay principles too now. Took you three years; QW players have been at it a few more already. At least now you acknowledge that some incremetal changes (time will tell whether they are improvements) are still being made. So even you now must admit some in the QW community are at least marginally interested in the games design, don't you? But in the end again, it's not the programmers that make a game evolve but the players.
Nice to see that the discussion moved away from your 'you all suck because I don't like QW' line though.
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Good read imo.
Just some subjective crap of mine to spice things up:
Hoony ---> "I think it would be fair to say that members of the QW community often regard themselves as being the "most hardcore", and "least gayest" of all the Quake communities. And I think they box themselves in with this "we're superior to you" attitude."
I think members of the QW-community regard themselves (and with good reason) as something separate from the rest of the gaming-communities. I think this has something to do with the average age and (dare I say) maturity of the qw-players. If this means that qw-players box themselves in ... so what?
Hoony ---> "It's not as if QW players need to play one or the other - they could play both. It's more a case of 'giving it a go' and having fun with something else that is also very good and a little different."
It's like asking a professional football player to start playing rugby on the side because it's "also very good and a little different" ... so what? What if I am happy and I like football? Despite appearances QW and CPMA have very FEW similiarities. In fact I would say: they have NO similarities for an initiated player of any one of the two. Sure you could learn both ... but the question is: does anyone want to?
Hoony----> "But all too often I get a sense from QW players that they regard CPMA as being nothing more than a poor imitation of the 'real thing' (which is, of course, QW)."
CPMA is not an imitation of QW, it's a completely different game.
Hoony ---> CPMA is not good enough for them to play - "because it's not QW"."
Whether or not CPMA is any good or not I refuse to get into. People who argue about taste are among the people that I would like to have first against the wall when I become king.
The key here is: CPMA is not QW. Stop comparing and stop pestering the football-players.
Hoony---> "From this perspective anyone who plays CPMA is no longer "a pure QW player" and I think the fear of no longer being accepted within the QW community is what prevents many QW players from having some fun by playing another good computer game."
I'm glad you added "from this perspective" Hoony. Otherwise I would have had to add you to my long list called "retarded people of the world".
Hoony--->"My argument is simply that it is a crying shame that the world's best QW players don't, on occasion, play some serious CPMA 1vs1 and show us what they've got. For the nth and final time, I'm not suggesting that said QW players 'move on' to CPMA 1vs1. It's not a case of 'either/or', it's more a case of 'try some of this for a change'."
Yeah, it will be WONDERFUL to see the worlds best football players go at it and play some good 'ol rugby or why not cricket ffs. I would really want to see that. I will personally write a folder about cricket, send it to FIFA and at the bottom of the last page I will ask: why not try some of THIS for a change?
Hoony--->"You haven't even got Q3A on your h/d. So you haven't even SEEN a top level CPMA game. This about says it all. Q3A is bargain-bin cheap these days and here's this mod made by Quake players for Quake players that is producing demos that get ppl really talking, and you are walking around with no interest whatsoever. There's something wrong there - it just doesn't seem right."
No it's all fucked up. You compare qw-players with q3-players and you assume somehow that we should be interested in what YOU like. Well ... I'll let you in on a little secret of mine: I just happen to be not interested and I don't intend to appologize about my taste in anything (that includes sports, music, art, men/women, interior decoration and whatever you wish to add). I also wont try to convince other people of my taste being the superior ...
Hoony--->"So you're like Jjonez and don't even have Q3A installed. You're happy with what you've got and are not interested in anything else even if people tell you it's good. Well, what a laid-back attitude that is! It's so laid back it's horizontal."
I am happy, you (obviously) are not.
Hoony--->"I have never been one to argue that a CPMA player should not try QW and in fact my whole bloody argument is that there is room in life for more than 'either/or'. How many more times do I have to repeat myself before you get it?"
Your whole bloody argument can't be reduced to "there is room in life for more than 'either/or'", so just shove it. You start of by passing all kind of judgment against the tiny fraction of people on this planet who refuse to compromise when it comes to gaming. Don't even try claiming that it's just a stunt or a trick for you to get some extra attention.
Hoony--->"You know I'm glad you guys are happy but I'm not happy. What kind of fucking community is this that I can spend the better part of three years assembling a world-wide and world-fucking class team of programmers, designers, mappers and the like and you morons don't even have Q3A on your h/d and you haven't even SEEN a good CPMA demo? It's all utterly wasted on the likes of you I guess."
Oh man. I just "might" have to add you to that list of mine anyway. Eventhough its allready been said ... heres an accurate description of the general sentiment of the QW-community regarding this issue: we didn't ask for it, we never said we wanted anything beside qw and we definatley won't feel guilty over the fact that you lost so much of your precious time developing that unwanted q3-mod of yours.
Hoony--->"You must have like zero interest in FPS design and gameplay issues. We must really be very different FPS gamers indeed. I find that very sad, in the sense that I can't share the joy of a good CPMA game with you guys even though I KNOW that you have the eyes to appreciate it. All because you don't even have the fucking game on your h/d and don't give enough of a shit to even check it out. You lazy bastards!"
... you are right .... wow ... I don't give a shit and I don't want to share anything with you ... amazing.
Enough of this crap - and too the people I don't respond to: I don't take you seriously enough to waste typing about your (in my fully subjective view) retarded opinions...
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Why do elder ppl not listen to techno?
Why do they prefer music of the 20ies-80ies?
Its just cos they were born at a certain time...
Are they too lazy to change?
They just got enough experience to know what fits best for them...They grew up in a 100% different enviroment...
In my opinion the people who missed QW becos they were too young to play it , had REALLY bad luck to miss such a great game...
But how can it work for them to live without QW then?
Even if they knew about QW... why arent they playing it if its such a great game... Maybe cos they got other preferences which evolved cos they were later born than most qw?ers....
and u GOTTA understand that its 100% the same thing for qw?ers towards "newer" games ....
they dont miss anything...
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Okay now i tested it! Today i played a few hours of cpma, and I must say it was pretty fun when playing not-so-guru-opponent.. playing vs tougher guys wasnt such a thrill.. running with your machinegun and dying.. same as playing tough guys in qw.
Setting the cpma was a pain in the ass, had to bother a lot of people in #promode and cl_allowdownload 1 was the key to solve my problem, i was lacking some important maps or something :)
I played some duels on cpm3(?), a level bit like dm4. Of course its pretty hard to play when you dont have a clue about tactics and dont know what each sound means (regarding to knowing where your enemy is) and of course bunnying was a bit different. I wasnt able to get high speeds like in QW, but i specced some players/demos and those guys seemed to go pretty fast. Another thing that hits you in the face, is that rockets are pretty darn slow compared to QW and shaft is pretty weak. Control changes in the map a lot, since you can do a nice comeback with rail/ssg/rl/shaft if you get lucky or outskill the enemy.
After playing some duels, i was like.. hmm this was pretty fun.. i could now test some teamplay to really play, and noticed.. there isnt any 2vs2, 4vs4 or ffa servers much around. So all you got is duel.. I ofcourse lost all my duels (usually do that in QW too), but it was fun, but not so fun that id keep on playing 1vs1 only.
Id rather stick to QW where you can also play 2vs2, 4vs4 and ffa also. Maybe ill play cpma sometimes, but I really dont like dueling so much. I do have to admit it was more fun than i expected. |
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| noticed that alcohol doesnt improve my already sucky english skills :) |
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#96 thx Ego, that was some good quality crap there. I appreciate the time you took and always enjoy the experience of being dissected and then dismissed one sentence at a time.
Now then. The core of your argument seems to me to be: "Despite appearances QW and CPMA have very FEW similiarities. In fact I would say: they have NO similarities for an initiated player of any one of the two. Sure you could learn both ... but the question is: does anyone want to?".
You don't try arguing that CPMA is a pale imitation of QW but instead you argue that it is a "completely different game". The bigger the gap you create between CPMA and QW the more unreasonable it looks to argue that QW players should want to or enjoy playing it.
You also have a sideline argument which turns the comparison into one of taste, but again the point is that if the tastes are so different then why should we expect person A who happens to be uninterested in the taste preferred by person B, to simply "try some of this for a change".
Then there's the bit which blasts me for calling you guys "lazy bastards" for not even being interested enough to check it out, your response to which is something like "we didn't ask for your q3mod", "we don't want anything other than qw", and the classic "I don't give a shit and I don't want to share anything with you".
So, I agree with you and think you should stay with QW. That is to say, I would rather you stayed with QW. Because I really wouldn't want to see that kind of closed-mind attitude become prevalent in the promode community, and thankfully it's not.
I think your house-of-cards argument stands or falls on whether or not CPMA is so different to QW that it is unreasonable to expect that a gifted and talented QW 1vs1 player might not enjoy playing it or at least be interested in checking it out.
You say it is, and I of course would say that it isn't. But if you hold that view, I respect that. And to anyone else who, like you, thinks CPMA is so different as to make it sound crazy for me to ask you guys to check it out I also apologise. From where I'm coming from, I thought you guys might actually enjoy it and like it. |
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| #98 & 99 thx for checking it out mooniz and letting us know what you found. appreciate it. hope you have space on your h/d to keep it and maybe check out some demos from time to time. |
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| noticed that alcohol doesnt improve my already sucky english skills :) |
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| hmhh.. I thought I might watch the final rat-aph. Its tomorrow I guess ? Dunno what time it is (CET) and how to spec games, but maybe someone will explain before the game :) |
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All please take a step back and look at what is being discussed, the tone at which the discussion was started and how it evolved and why Hoony chose to do it like that. In your mind, add between 5 and 10 smileys to each comment.
Thanks. We can now continue the discussion: "why don't QW players (want to) try CPM". |
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...to change, even try or care, when you have played a game for 5 years, and all of the games that was supposed to get better did in fact not get better, only worse. Add that to the great community we got in some ppl will find it very very hard to try out YET ANOTHER GAME THAT MANY PPL SAY IS MUCH BETTER THAN QW.
I agree with Ego; QW has in its 6-7 living time evolved to a freakin sport in its own, its the same game over and over again, and ppl love it; then you have found the perfect waste of time, I guess.
Now thats hard to change :) |
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Imo for a deathmatch-FPS game to thrive it needs to have active "FFA" type servers, where players can just join in and make a few frags whilst learning the game. By playing FFA you learn map/item layouts, how to use different weapons, and generally improve your aim/movement/combat skills. Diving straight in at the deep end - duelling - makes things a bit more tricky since things like map knowledge and tactics are much more important and the player can often find themselves so overpowered that they can't learn the game effectively (e.g. I don't think playing nothing but 1on1 dm4 is a good way to learn QW).
If what mooniz says is true, and there aren't many FFA servers with players on, maybe that's a reason why it hasn't grown. When I try a new game I certainly don't jump on a duel server straight away. Of course you can play bots a bit to learn skills/maps but some people dislike the idea of playing bots, especially if they are very weak tactically (even FFA has tactics) or too accurate with aim.
Ego: good to see you again, I hope you will be following the conclusions to SD5/NQR3. I think you are wrong about Hoony's attitude however; it's not the first time he has seeked to stir up a debate in this fashion. |
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I think I was actually trying to help Hoony stir up some shit here - but as I suspected (most) QW:ers and CPMA-creators are just too reasonable and old for this kind of lame crap that is "arguing on the internet".
Jj is hitting the mark with his latest post but I would just like to add that discussing the reasons will be quite non-productive since it wont change the fact. Might be a good read though.
HT: as you all know by now, I always keep within range of some kind of qw-coverage so I will be following the playoffs as best as I can (very busy though). Nice to see so much good games being played in both leagues at the same time!
And Hoony: as for having a closed mind, I must say that I am proud to be qw-conservative but that I am also proud of the fact that it is the only form of conservatism that I currently pursue and that it (in the end) relates to something as trivial as a computer-game.
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Hoony...you say "Why don't more QW players try cpma?" But to me the more pertinent question is "Why don't more cpma players try QW?"
A lot of people here seem to be spewing out the "new games=progress" nonsense beloved of so many newbies. Quakeworld people just don't think like this. Look at football - do people feel the need to introduce Football II, Football III: Pitch? These people are happy playing QW so leave them alone, even if you obviously want some of the top QW players to spice up your own game. :)
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What I mean is, people have to lose this assumption that new games = progress, therefore QW is for dinosaurs. In terms of gameplay IMO it is actually QW that represents progress and as such the real issue is why people aren't switching to QW. Although I'm not asking that, there is a long list of obvious answers that I'm sure everyone can recite.
For the record, I did want to try CPMA but I couldn't get the server browser working and no bots would load up to fight me. I did put some effort into it but soon gave up :(
CPMA is certainly a nice game but from what I know the way it was marketed ruined its chances of being really big. Even the name screams out "Fuck off Q3 n00bs, your game is LAME, ours is PRO." Now although this is true, from a pragmatic viewpoint it makes for some pretty incompetent marketing. As a result, I remember when the game came out it had more enemies than friends. :( |
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It seems that alot of us QW players have a general feeling about the RG....
http://pub.mountainwalrus.com/swf/why_hate_q3.swf
That may answer some of your questions :] |
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It seems that alot of us QW players have a general feeling about the RG....
http://pub.mountainwalrus.com/swf/why_hate_q3.swf
That may answer some of your questions :] |
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| Refreshing made me post it a second time =/ (sorry) |
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Well, I read most of this stuff here.
I really like the stuff Hoony writes and read most of the stuff from him, though I?m not playing any game active. I try to play QW more often ATM and really would like to play ProMode as well, but I?m bond to QW because of my fucking looser Notebook which has no 3d-Card. Not that I dislike QW it is the most fun FPS I played so far (first played QW then Q3 for a long time) but I also would like to try ProMode ... I tried it before when I had a REAL computer but back then there weren?t enough Servers (about 2,5 years ago(the version which was for a LAN of Team Abuse (afaik))).
From what I read here I think that some guys like Ego are very harsh. Same goes for arQon, as stated in a comment above he?s a Q2 Player, so who cares what he has to say. ;)
Hoony honors every QW-Player with his statement. He wants ProMode to evolve with the help of QW-Players because he thinks (hope it was meant this way >8-]) that the only source of skill, which really could own this mod is the QW-Community. He tells that he is sad because QW-Players have the potential to REALLY SEE the skill involved ProMode and the spectacular frags. Not like CS-Players who haven?t those skills ... not the skill to play ProMode ... not even the skill to SEE what is/makes a good frag.
BTW.: Have you ever seen a CS Movie? LOL
Well, whatever ... that was running through my mind.
And Hoony, what makes me sad is that your colum and news updates are not regular anymore. Move your lazy ass and put more effort in the network again. Greetings though. >8-]
-BrixX:
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Promode this, CPMA that, I really don't care. But you listen good, Mr. Hoony...
Last time I checked All-Seeing Eye there were 11 people currently playing Quakeworld DM in America, and 13 CPMA'ers. Meanwhile, there are well over 1000 Q3 players, and so many Counterstrike players that my computer would probably crash if I tried to refresh the entire list.
It's hard enough to find someone to play against in QW as it is. If I find that a few weeks from now 10 of those QW players have abandoned THE BEST GAME EVAR for CPMA, leaving me to play against that weird guy on the free for all server who binds chat messages to his movement keys, I WILL POST INFLAMMATORY COMMENTS ABOUT THE NORTH AMERICAN QW COMMUNITY IN EVERY COLUMN YOU WRITE, INDEFINITELY...........................................k?
If you convinced every single one of us to play CPMA religously, you'd have enough players to outnumber the amount of people at the average Poison concert, but just barely. Go harass some other gaming community, it's really hard for QW players to convince everyone that 2 people playing QW with 20 aliases each fits the definition of "community" already (you did know that, right?).
Go recruit those counter-strikers, Hoony. Leave us alone, you game-killer.
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lol 114, I hope NA QW never evapourates to you and your 11 alias' =P
And wow Ego, I didn't realise arq had a twin brother.... I just can't tell which is the evil one :)
Man I must be -the- biggest QW-CPMA voyer ever reading ALL that at once. :) theres another smiley for Jj
Ironically it was largely through playing CPM, checking CH-WD, that I got into QW. IT"S ALL GONE PEARSHAPED HOONY, AHHHH!
What I've found from the beginning is that QW and CPM go together really well, exceptionally well. And I find myself concentrating on one more than another in phases, it really keeps both games fresh when you come back to the other, its great. I think Hoony was just trying to share that idea.
There being many similarities in the games, I think there is a fair bit in the communities too. We both believe in DeathMatch, the fun, the absolute concentration it invokes. Come and join us the true gamer minority transdeathmatch-junkies. 80)
FYI Hoony quite a few aussie QWers are also playing CPMA, hence im in a cpma phase atm :) though all this reading about qw has got me wanting to fire up fuh. =D
HangTime: Alot of good points, the one about the lack of non-1v1 cpm servers, is a good one. But I think the past lack of servers and small numbers of players, has been the biggest cause of this. But a good thing to keep in mind :) I know qw has historically been unable to switch from 1v1 to ffa (though ktpro had it sort of working
when i tried last), with cpma "/callvote mode ffa" should switch most servers.
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i read this all in one setting too(wish i woulda seen it when it was new, so i coulda discussed it). i like both qw and cpm, they are really so similiar imo. they hold the same ideals, and have more than a few community members who are active in both qw+cpm. it's ironic there is so much, i don't know what to call it, intensity which most cpmers(arq mainly!) seem to resist qw with and vice versa. face it - both communities are basically hypocritcal ultra religious sects when it comes to talking about the stuff in these comments. :)
as to why qw players don't switch over it's pretty simple - cpm _might_ be a better game overall, but even if it is, it's not going to really be that much better given all the knowledgable opinions on the subject. all the time you've invested into qw is better spent playing more qw. you don't know people in the cpm community, you haven't practiced for 6 yrs in cpm, you might need to upgrade your pc, you will still probably like qw more just because it's embedded into your brain, etc... i'd be playing both if i had broadband. actually i might try cpm again but i fear 26.4k modem isn't going to cut it just like it doesn't in qw. if i find it bearable i'll be an extra body to play with though. ;)
qw rocks and so does cpm! personally i think it'd be better if there was only qw or cpm and not both. they compete for players of the same type - mature people looking for the ultimate gaming experience. i do prefer qw over cpm but i admit i've never had a chance to really test cpm for 6 months while i've more than done that for qw. of course i was a religious nqer(read: anti qw zealot) so maybe once i do get a chance i'll see the light and switch. that is if i ever get over my intense hatred for rail. ;) |
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been playing qw for ages, tried cpma, realised the rail is actually quite powerful, and can enhance gameplay (after initial whinges) and i enjoy.
i still play qw, although it takes me about a day to get my movement back, because there is some subtle timing dif.'s in the bunny hopping which is quite annoying.
if you are goign to play both (which i'm an advocate of), you can't really do it in the sense of, 1 hour cpma then 1 hour qw in the same day.
you have to do it in bigger proportions, and for those of us without broadband, can we have better bots?
seeing as movement is so crucial to cpma, would it at all be possible to get bots who can bunny hop? that would be incredible.
thanks. |
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In cpma 1.0 http://www.challenge-tv.com/index.php?mode=filedetail&file=129
use bot_boost 1.5
doesnt make em bunny, but they move quicker. |
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| If my conn gets any shittier :/ I *will* rewrite every single fucking line of id's shitearse bot code and turn them into something decent, even if it kills me... |
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