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CPL Europe
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Tuesday, 17 April 2001 -
QW and CPL. Oh joy. ? $comment_count ?>
This will be my most uninformed update ever. Simply because there isn't much information about the alleged CPL QuakeWorld event in June yet. There are a lot of exctatic reactions however, and I can't really figure out what about. So I'll just raise a few concerns I have here, while I'm still struggling to make up my own mind.
- Whom is the target audience composed of? Who of the newer generation of players (that started playing 3D shooters with Q2, Q3, Tribes, Unreal) owns a copy of Quake? Or how many would go out and pay real money for an ancient piece of software to participate in a LAN or to simply watch demos comming out of it?
- Is it going to be a 1-1 tournament? I must admit I haven't watched any duel demos in probably over a year, but I think QW 1-1 lost quite a bit of its appeal due to speedjumping? (If you can point me to a good recent duel demo, I may well change my mind.) Has anyone in CPL actually seen a recent QW demo?
- On the other hand, should it turn out to be a team event, which mod will be used? One that allows strafejuming to its fullest or rather one that gives more classical gameplay? What about the influence of the NetQuake fraction that has always been pretty strong in the US?
- How will competitors be selected? From online leagues (which there are quite a few of, if you can find them)? Or maybe from the ranks of current CPL top players? Or even by achievement in QuakeWorlds glorious past (i.e. before Q2 hit the pro-gaming scene)?
- How does the QuakeWorld community benefit from this? What if some of the (very few) people who actually manage to make some sort of a living off of gaming start training 24/7 and beat the 'amateur' top QW players of this moment, only to switch back to CS or go to UT or Tribes 2 depending on what the next CPL event will revolve around? Wouldn't this further deteriorate the image of QW (which is only played by people who are unable to adapt to change and can't master any of the new games)?
- Will players be allowed to tweak their setups for greatest visibility (and extremely ugly displays) or will CPL officials enforce some standard settings that look good on camera (they did before, if I remember well)? Can fullbrights be allowed?
- Is it going to be a single map, single elimination system? QW requires quite different skills on different maps, and I don't think even top players are great in all of them (but of course, this should be discoverd at the event).
- How can the current QW, with its -by todays standards- ghastly appearance, hope to attract the attention of newer players? Unless people are forced to watch a QW game, most of them won't realise how exciting the game is before they turn away after 17 seconds and say "Fuck, that looks outdated.". Or is any of the new QW clients reliable enough to take over?
- Cheating has become a really marginal problem in todays QW, but won't this change when more people are attracted by prizes being offered? CPL isn't too concerned with online gaming, but could this cause problems in the online community? What about proxies anyway?
Let it be clear that I'm not criticising CPL for even considering a QW event. I rather feel that the reactions in the QuakeWorld community, based on very little information, have been overly europhic so far. Until there is some more news about the format of the competition, the maps to be played and how they are selected, the client and mod to be used, the rules and settings of the game I won't be able to decide on my feelings.
On the bright side, it seems CPL will be open to suggestions on any or all of these issues, so it might very well turn into something good. Rejoice after all?
Comments
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My thoughts on the above points.
* I think the point is more a "getting back to your roots" event. A bit of a novelty as it were.
* In Australia at least there are plenty of people who still watch QW duel demos, I'm one of them. I rarely watch demos but I'll always watch matches between famous QW players. I think speed jumping has made some maps less interesting but has made others more interesting. I think maps like aerowalk, dm4 & dm2 haven't been "ruined" by speed jumping but dm6 is certainly a lot different and for me, somewhat less interesting.
* The Americans would just be being stubborn if they wanted to play NQ. Most, if not all games of Quake are played using QW, lan or otherwise. KTeams seams to be by far the most popular mod, teamplay or duel.
* I'm not sure where this figures in. If it's going to be like any other CPL event then anyone can turn up and try to qualify. It's totally up to the organisers.
* I don't think it's an attempt to keep the QW community alive or anything like that, again, think it's something of a nostalgic event. I think most of the players will be new or those that have moved on to newer games but still dabble in a bit of QW. I don't think it would alter the image of QW in any way. In fact some people who never considered it before might actually take it up, as least casually. I know quite a few Q3 players that now also play a bit of QW.
* I don't think player settings, in terms of graphics quality will be much of an issue. If you want pretty graphics for the cameras then use a chasecam spec on a machine with the settings turned up. Contrary to popular belief, GLQW looks quite decent with default settings. As far as rules go the CPL should be looking at the Smackdown rules regarding settings and proxies.
* Again, I don't think the point is really to attract new players and the graphics aren't *that* bad when not tweaked for FPS.
* As far as rules and proxies go, again, the Smackdown ppl have got that sorted and some proxies ( like Qizmo ) have cheat protection.
The CPL know there are ppl who can make the right decisions re: format and rules all they need to do is consult them which I believe they will do. I think most QW players are rejoycing not because they thing this will revive QW but we'll get to see some really good lan QW games played by some of the best QWers in the world.
"which is only played by people who are unable to adapt to change and can't master any of the new games"
I really object to that comment. Most people who play QW now days do so becuase they prefer QW over other games after they've tried them. No matter how much I play Q3 I always have more fun playing QW and I'm pretty crap at both of them. I don't seem to recall many top QW players openly stating that they got boored with QW or simply don't like the game much. The same can't be said for Q3.
These days I end up playing more Q3 than QW but every time I play QW I enjoy it much more than Q3 and I'm sure most other QW fans feel the same way as I do. |
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I think Jjonez uses rather a lot of irony, a tad of cynicism and a few dollops of sarcasm (don't worry, he's even like that when he orders MacDonalds ;-).
For example Jjonez of course does not believe that QW is a game "which is only played by people who are unable to adapt to change and can't master any of the new games". That's the sort of thing *other* ppl have said that pisses him off.
Jjonez I believe sees irony in the CPL using QW as a competitive platform, even for a celebratory, "fun" event. He also suspects, I suspect, that while at first glance it looks wonderful that the CPL are going to use QW, it might end up that the way they use it turns out to be somewhat frustrating to the most active members of the international QW community. It may be that the event is not even very international, and so on. He can correct me if my "translations" are off base.
Anyway, I emailed Mike Wardwell a few days ago and asked that he at least listen to the advice of the Smackdown admins, eg zzJohnzz (as a North American contact) and also suggested you, GreySeer :). I mentioned that you recently ran the Q3A tournament at CPLP too. Whether he does or not we shall see. My own feeling is that the CPL will probably do this QW event "their way" and I will be surprised if they use stuff like Qizmo or K-teams. I hope I'm wrong. |
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greyseer, i agree with all your comments but still cant figure out what the benefit for the existing QW community really would be, and that is my main question really.
im afraid hoonys interpretation of my little rant is dead on.
again, im not per se negative about this. i just dont share the outburst of positivism until we find out a bit more. |
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I guess I'll have to read your stuff more often, then I would have seen it for what it was :)
Like I said though, I'm not sure the point of the exercise is to revitalise or benefit the QW community, in some ways it's a PR exercise and in others it's just nostalgic.
As for the CPL getting help running the event, well AFAIK they basically sub-contract out, I hope that the ppl they "sub-contract" out to have the brains to consult the Smackdown ppl or are Smackdown ppl. |
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i figured out what it all boils down to: is it going to be a real competion, be it team or 1-1, up to current qw standards, or rather an exhibition by CPL pro-gamers showing how the freaky games of yesteryear were played.
in the first case, CPL can probably find people in the quuakeworld community (in smackdown or elsewhere) to help out, in the other i dont see the point. |
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| I don't understand why you're looking that pessimistic at that announced CPL event. I thought one of the reasons to run Smackdown was to keep qw "alive" and try to catch the players' attention and show them what a great game Quake is/was. Maybe the CPL won't invite Reload, Venture the FF/E/TVS crews to play on a competive level according to today's standards but the CPL gets players to play the game for main purpose: fun. The CPL might not become a TGI or a Rapture, to see who's the best but it will be another LAN that shows the world which game is the greatest |
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I already suggested to Angel Munoz that for the cost of a few air-fares it would be well worth holding an invitational but he replied that the CPL has a long-standing policy not to pay for players' air fares and accomodations. Makes business sense.
So, whatever the competition format, we won't see the best players from around the world there unless they can somehow raise the money themselves or find sponsorship. There also isn't a lot of time, and I doubt that "qualifiers" can be organised to fund player travel.
Therefore, it is quite likely that the event won't be as good as it *could* be, and yet as andy says it will still feature QW, no doubt a lot of talented US players will be in attendance, and perhaps a few "internationals" will also make it. The result has still got to be good for QW (anything is better than nothing?).
And yet I also understand Jjonez's realism/pessimism. I would rather that QW at the CPL showed off what the game is currently all about. To do that, it really needs to use stuff like qizmo and k-teams, and to see top international players (and teams?) attend. It's kind of like being very close, and yet being very far, from showing the CPL what the world's biggest QW event could be like. Kind of ironic, in fact (Jjonez has large antennae for irony).
Still, one never knows and it is a miracle that the CPL is proposing to hold an event which features QW at all. Andy and Jjonez are both right - they just comment on a glass that is half full with different perspectives.
I hope Mike Wardwell announces some details soon so that the QW community knows what the options are. |
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andy, if all of my questions are answered in the worst possible way, the top attraction of the event could be a duel of tresh vs. killkreeck in dm3, dmm1 with powerups and and sequential spawns (you know; the type of settings the ferrari was decided on). even Q3 could conceivably produce more exciting games, so this is not exactly the best way to showcase the strenghts of QW.
i know, its not very likely cpl will set something up as silly as that, but as hoony and yourself pointed out, the chances of having another TGI are just as slim.
my post was not aimed at discouraging CPL of attempting a QW event, nor was it intended to dissuade anyone from attending (or helping others to do so), it was intended to point out some of the difficult choices that have to be made by the cpl and, between the lines, it implied how these choices could, in my opinion, strongly influence the success of the event itself and reflect on the qw community in general. it was intended to counterbalance the 'nothing can go wrong, the cpl is on our side' feeling that seems to prevail.
in fact, for all i know, almost none of the questions have been answered, not even within cpl itself. so there is no need to despair just yet, and i certainly don't; i just still havent made up my mind.
hoony, i would appreciate it if you would stop second-guessing the true meaning behind my rambling. do you realise how scary the high veracity of your assumptions is to me?
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"This will be my most uninformed update ever."
Reply: This was the most bullshit update you ever did! =)
(without the intention to piss you off) |
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First of all this CPL QW event is almost unique in 5 years of existance. TGi was great, the best QW 1on1 tournament ever; Villans was also great... those were very good due primarely to it's strong admins (Egowhip and Izno team) The question is: CPL knows about this/will they consult the "experts" ?
Another bad thing about all this is the timing... few time to prepare things such as practising, getting sponsors for air travels... etc. Don't u think all this came too late ? Angel should have thinked this sooner... in my opinion, this is a nostalgic-only tournament. Sure, QW rocks :) and they were "forced" to do this, since Q3 was such a disaster (btw, where is Teamarena?) but do u think they take this QW thing seriously ? I guess this is just a test for QW and the community. Shame we have few time to prepare ourselves.
for me it's impossible to attend, as well as (all?) portuguese players. And I think noone thinks of QW in a professional way. hmm.. I think this will be a NA tourney with VERY few international attendances. IF things will be done right, with proper coverage and so on, maybe this won't happen.
Bottom line, let's see how things will work and how well(or bad) will this be seen and apreciated. And the priority they'll(and the most important gaming sites) give to this QW tourney.
[]'s to my smackdown mates Andy and jj
cheers and congrats for your work, Greyseer and Hoony
www.ptarena.net -> it's in portuguese, but nice contents :)
Finally, sorry for my english, i fell dumb :o
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"This will be my most uninformed update ever."
Reply: This was the most bullshit update you ever did! =)
(without the intention to piss you off) |
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Once again he astounds me with his grasp of the English language! Well, reading these comments it seems there is some semi-negative feedback - I think as Hoony points out it's important to bear in mind jj's position on things in the past. Taken at face value his post seems rather pessimistic (the disclaimer passes most people by), but knowing what his overall philosophy is on the great game it's clear that he is voicing genuine concerns rather than attacking CPL for the sake of it. I've been reading this column for quite a while, ever since I played against his clan GoH in their first ever competitive game in Villains. Those who don't know the background he has in QW and the community probably don't appreciate that he has some very perceptive views on progaming, and takes an active interest in furthering QW.
Some of the points he makes seem slightly irrelevant to me; mod usage can surely not be an issue: it MUST be kteams or a variant thereof, all the top players of today (and most europeans from past years) are familiar with it. Not to mention the fact that there is basically no comprable competition mod in existence. Even if a lot of "old sk00l" players from NA get involved, I can't see any valid objections to kteams usage they could make ["kteams sux0rz, these newbies go whizzing round at 100mph" won't quite cut it :)]. From what I can see the NQ-only community is tiny compared to QW so their influence should be insignificant.
Since gfx settings and such can be set to a high level on spec/observer cams (for bigscreens or whatever) I don't think players playing in high fov, mipcap and 320x200 should be a problem. Some kind of basic guide to running glqwcl, connecting to servers, demo playback, a few settings etc would be useful for any newbies to qw interested in following the event (maybe apollyon's project?). Personally I don't really care about point 1 (who is the target audience), IMO competions should be setup so as to best suit the participants. Maybe CPL don't see it this way, but if they don't listen to what the remaining hardcore community wants they might as well not bother (lack of TRUE qw community interest will make the event less exciting/important and hence even fewer ppl will watch it).
Basically, if they stick to SD type rules on kteams, qizmo etc then cheating shouldn't be an issue. Sure on its own qizmo isnt enough to guarentee security for a "pro-gamer" event, but seeing as it's on LAN computers can be watched, checked etc for irregularities.
"What if some of the (very few) people who actually manage to make some sort of a living off of gaming start training 24/7 and beat the 'amateur' top QW players of this moment" - I can't see this happening... the money they could earn in QW can't be near what it is in other games (especially just from a single event), so I doubt they would train that hard. Even if they DID start playing "24/7", thats not much different to the top amateur players of today. A lot of guys in QW today play 6hrs or more per day, every day, and have done for years. Clans like -FF- are lightyears ahead of historic greats when it comes to modern quake. In duel competetion the difference is not so great (developments in tp strategy are irrelevant) but I still feel pietro, paradoks et al 0wn a lot more than lakerman, kane and timber. Reload is interesting because he is the only TGI player still playing. Anyway, I think this event cannot be BAD for us qw relics, even if its not all we want it to be. Worst case, a bunch of hasbeens playing on retarded settings? We can just passively keep playing QW, who cares if the tournament is a "flop" - we won't be any worse off publicity wise than we are at present.
Heh, I came here looking to defend Jj and have ended up dissecting his suggestions. To me the answers to most of his questions are obvious - but that's the problem - I don't run the CPL, and it's quite possible those who do won't realise just how obvious the answers are to hardcore QW players. It's been so long since a big QW tourney has been run in the US they might not understand things current players take for granted (qizmo, kteams, "tweaks" like FB skins). So Jjonez is right to be concerned. This post is far longer than I had intended so I guess I better wrap it up :)
Ever since rapture '99 the QW community has been crying out for a big publicity worldwide event. Now one has come along, we MUST make sure CPL understands what is required to run a QW competition in the modern era. With the backing of challenge-network I hope they will at least listen to what the Smackdown guys have to say. This is our chance to show the world what makes the game we love so special. Speak now or forever hold your peace.
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| QuakeWorld lives :o I will be doing some stuff with KTeam soon and once i get everything in place the webbie will move too. Its already up but with no content if you can find it. its really difficult, no really . . . |
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| sorry about my article.. i'm just stupid and ignorant.. my opinions are of no relevance and i'm surprised anyone has actually spent any amount of time reviewing the crap i've written about the best game that was ever invented. QUAKEWORLD. everything since is a diluted peace of bullshit. anyway, i am a nerd |
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*** Resolved 216.232.231.57 to b3gx1996y3284.bc.hsia.telus.net
... which is a canadian adsl ip i believe |
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