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Tuesday, 13 June 2000 -
Planet Quake Does Promode $comment_count ?>
According to a Planetquake editorial by Pappy-R, "the Pro Mode Mod is aiming for world domination and it's picture on the four dollar bill". Go read the editorial and then take a look at my rebuttal.
The editorial is a poorly researched, mis-informed, scaremongering beatup. Pappy-R has rather clearly penned his editorial to save the world from domination by the Challenge Promode (CPM). He defends Q3A against the threat of CPM becoming a competition standard.
Good stuff - CPM must be doing better than we thought.
Check out "PQ Does Promode" HERE.
Comments
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I ask that everyone plays the next Pro Mode release and forms their own opinion instead of basing it on any article. My personal reason for writing my article had nothing to do with wanting Pro Mode to become the standard for pro gaming (although I would love to see that). I instead wrote it because I wanted others to be aware of why I have so much more fun playing Pro Mode. Since my article was posted, I have received countless emails from Quake and Quake 2 players who don't even play Quake 3 because it is too mundane. They were all very excited about Pro Mode and plan on switching over to it. Combine these players with the many Vanilla Quake 3 players that are unhappy with Id's overly simple game, and it looks like the Pro Mode community might just be bigger than the Vanilla Quake 3 one.
So play several Pro Mode games and see if you don't get hooked. It has reminded me of why I play these types of games... for fun. And I am not worried about missing out on the competition either. Since Vanilla Quake 3 is so much slower and mindless than Pro Mode, I believe it will be quite easy for a Pro Mode player to dominate Vanilla Quake 3 tournaments. :) But Vanilla Quake 3 players are going to have a bit more difficulty getting into shape for all of the Pro Mode tournaments in the future. :P
The bottom line is to play whatever you have the most fun playing. Just make that decision based on experience and not on hearsay.
Regards,
citizen
http://www.teamabuse.com
http://www.lansanity.com
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| I would have expected PQ to do better then this... |
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Since that is out of the way.... I know Pappy and I would problably consider him to be a "regular" player and not a extremelly competitive player, of course I can't speak for him. I think the Pro Mode supporters have to get ready for more articles like this, articles from the "non pros" because there will be many more of them as this gains popularity.
Personaly, I'm 50/50 when it comes to Pro Mode. There are a lot of things that I like, and others I don't like so much. The one thing I agree on is that Quake 3 just isn't as much fun or interesting as Quake 1 and Quake 2 were. If you think other wise, you problably didn't spend a year or more playing each game.
Is Pro Mode going to save Quake 3? Who knows.. but its going to be a long road ahead.
Honny, true there are some inacuracies in Pappy's article, but I think you have to understand that his view, is pretty much what regular Q3 players get when they come here, read the features, and check out the comments and msgboards. I think for Pro Mode to become more acceptable, 2 things have to happen. 1, is the name of the mod, and 2 the general attitude of people when they are asked what Pro Mode is all about "ho, just makes Q3 more like Q1". I can't count how many times I have heard that one. |
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| when is the new version of the pro mod gonna be out ? . im not a patient guy . And a pro mode guy would not rule a vq3 tournament , he would be destroyed . when he doesnt know how too play vq3 yer dead , its a different game . |
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| Some ppl say that promode is gonna be in the next update from ID....guess its bullshit since it not on ur page but .....gotta ask :) |
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I read the articles, watched the demos, and played the maps, but I
*still* don't see the point of Promode. Pappy-R is not on a "crusade"
against your mod, he told people to try it out and gave them links so
they could. Pappy-R is demanding that you validate your existance, an
elementary task unless you have no validation. Perhaps this causes the
vitriol in Hoony's "rebuttal"?
Either get serious about producing a competition-level product, or
drop the authoritative rhetoric. You can't demand that people have
fun playing your cobbled-together FPS competition touchstone. Or, as
says in his "Docs/server-settings-q3.txt" file
from OSP, "Doing so will only bring pain and suffering when confusion
sets in."
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"Pappy-R is demanding that you validate your existance"
That's pretty weird, dude. In so many ways. (Let's count them!) First of all... why is it Pappy's job to "demand validation" from people working on a mod? Second, why is it _anyone's_ job? Why do modmakers need to "validate" themselves at all? They make something they think is fun, either you agree and you play the damn thing, or you don't. Third, if anyone has been paying attention, they could find nearly endless amounts of "validation" about each change that has gone into CPM, including but not limited to the article by cit that Pappy linked to... these things have been hashed out so many times in the public eye it's ridiculous. Fourth, I guess we can expect to see a weekly editorial from Pappy "demanding validation" from various other mods, as none of them explain their decisions nearly as much as the CPM team does.
The amazing thing about CPM is how it can bring out such silliness both from people who like it and people who don't. Pappy's editorial isn't quite a contender for being among the silliest, but it makes a good effort in that direction. It's often uninformed and sprinkled with dumb rhetorical tricks and broad sarcasm. Not that I expect Pulitzer Prize level stuff from PQ, but still... that was a bad show.
An article that demonstrated actual experience with and understanding of CPM, which then proceeded to address the design goals and gameplay changes with some degree of accuracy and an absence of cheap shots...that could have been a good thing. Instead we get a piece that was maybe one evolutionary rung higher than your standard off-the-cuff messageboard rant. Disappointing. Not at all the kind of piece PQ should put up on an issue that is already controversial and surrounded by so much bogus yammer. |
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PQ has always been this trashy IMO. But damn I wish I'd read Hoony's post before I wrote to them because it says everything I said in my email, but in like 500 less words ;)
In any case though, Pappy-R went pretty damn low both in the fact that he publicly bashed a|citizen and the CPM team because he doesn't like CPM (which as I stated in my email to them, that it's just like 1 in a million morons who spam the gaming forums all day ranting about this or that), and also because he went fairly low on the maturity and professionalism meters as far as I'm concerned. Despite my opinion of PQ before this was still a bit of a shocker.
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Yes, it would be wrong and harmful to require a normal mod to validate
its existance, (Fists of Fury!, Instagib+, etc.) Mod-for-Mod's sake
is a worthy, noble and fulfilling goal. But Hoony and company have
never purported to create a normal mod. The whole project smacks
of holier-than-thou elitism (witness Hoony's Stalinist rant on
http://www.challenge-us.com/), self-aggrandizing grandstanding, and
foundationless revolution. It's marketing-driven production values at
their worst, all hype and no code. This isn't Mod-for-Mod's sake, it's
Mod-for-Hoony's sake.
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Well, I guess we have a disconnect here.
I think CPM is fun, and I really don't care whose name is on it. I disagree with some of the CPM design decisions, and I am often interested in discussing those with people. I'm not however all that interested in being a part of someone's working through their personal issues with Hoony or anyone else on the team. Or in debating what multisyllabic insults would be appropriate for their efforts. I'm out.
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Final,
My god dude claim down. "Mod-for-Hoony's sake". Oh yeah sure. The objectives of CPM are very clear and succint, regardless of what Hoony or a|rev have said about it (or anyone else on the team for that regard) because the fact is most of it is in response to annoying monkeys like yourself.
Theres nothing wrong with passionate debate, but 'professional' journalists attacking a non-profit project? Who's the fucking stalin.. he's using his position to propagate his point of view by means he knows aren't ethical (lack of research, and blatant sensationalising).
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I can't force people to play promode, and I wouldn't try to. We're making the mod, if people like it they will play it. Pretty simple really.
But I do speak out when I see what I consider to be poor arguments against our Mod.
Let's take a look at *your* arguments:
1. "Either get serious about producing a competition-level product, or drop the authoritative rhetoric".
- Is that an argument? No, it just seems to be a demand laden with assumptions (ie that we're not serious, and that we use authoritative rhetoric). The obvious question is, what if we don't meet either of these demands? Will Final hold his breath until he goes purple in the face?
2. "You can't demand that people have fun playing your cobbled-together FPS competition touchstone".
- Is this an argument? No it just seems to be an assertion that we "demand people have fun" playing promode. Where on earth do we "demand that people have fun" with promode?
3. (Paraphrased) "Hoony and his evil cohorts must validate their existance because they're making an elitist, self-aggrandising, grandstanding, foundationless, marketing-driven, all hype and no code "Mod-for-Hoony" for themselves".
- Finally, an argument. But what does it boil down to? It seems to boil down to saying we should validate our existance because we're making a mod primarily for expert gamers and writing about promode on our websites.
There's no useful points made about any of the gameplay design choices in promode. It's another example of a very poor argument. |
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| Discecting my "argument" in order to debunk all the little pieces is pointless because there was no argument there in the first place. I, (and Pappy-R, I think, beneath the hyperbole,) are throwing down the gauntlet, as it were. Put up or shut up. Fire the marketing team, take back the high hat, give me a mod worth playing, and I'll play until my eyes bleed. I don't want you to stop making a mod. I want you to stop copy-pasting my inane messageboard chatter and put together a decent offering. Validate. Your. Existance. |
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The fact still remains that CPM plays like Q1, intentioanlly designed like this or not that is a fact. The majority of the community has already voiced this opinion in so many words. With that said 'IF' I want to play a game with Q1 features, I play Q1, simple. I play Q3A on the other hand because it has a complety different 'Formula' of game play. Now for my point.
I read Pappy-R's arty like he was scared that some Mod maker might come up with a better 'Formula' than Id and that Mod maker happened to be you fellows here. I happen to disagree with some of his points and will not rehash/paraphrase it here as we have all read it and know what it says.
Again.. Pappy-R IMO didnt write that to put a 'Scare' into the community. I think he wrote it because he IS Scared that the community as a whole might actually adopt a Mod that isn't Id produced (read into that however you wish).
I'll admit that I am a casual Quake player. Used to be hardcore Quake all the time. But there are just too many other games out there that are just as fun and to spend every waking hour playing just one does not suit everyone.
If the community wants to adopt this or that Mod as the Standard for so called 'Pro' matches so be it. But also remember that the players that concider themselves Pro's are but a VERY small portion of the Quake community as a whole.
On sencond thought.. BAH!! Who cares what I say.. I just thought I throw down with the rest of ya. :P |
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All that just to come to the conclusion that there really is no argument to be made. :) Good stuff!
final, I don't get it.. you post your accusations or "inane messageboard chatter" then after Hoony puts the smack down you follow it up by telling him to stop responding to your accusations. err, did I miss something? No, I guess you did.
Then you basically tell him to get back to making a mod for you as if he must _prove_ he's capable of making something you will like. wtf It's like you're trying to throw your weight around yet you don't even have it to begin with.
"Validate. Your. Existance." |
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As long as you're enjoying the mod, does it matter what validation it has for it's existence? And, if you don't like the mod, what's the point of demanding validation for it's existence? It's not going to make you like it any more, is it?
The reason (and I'm guessing here) that Hoony can seem to get annoyed at people that constantly ask the team to 'validate' the existence of the mod is because every validation that they could offer is here ... challenge-world.com/promode. |
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| I have to apologize to everyone. I see all this energy expended on Quake and I want there to be some tangible outcome, meaning, substance; which, of course, is like trying to find nutrition in a Twinkie. I've done this before, of course, but I didn't see the pattern till now; trying to convice people that their actions might have repercussions beyond their fingertips, that is. If you'll do me the favor of forgetting I was here, I'll be sure to delete the bookmark. |
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pro mode is aiming for one set of players, which you can say is a minority in the quake community, therefore i doubt any real tournament would bring promode into there arms due to the fact that there are some 7million other people who play quake3 and have already accepted it, and the fact that those 7million people have purchased q3... how can you just assume tournaments and people will accept it? there is a huge difference to the promode thats aimed for. .. 'pro' players.. i really still would like a definition of pro player:).. there are 2 sides to this.. one being the pro side, and one being the other 7million and when pappy speaks out for the 7million, you guys rank on him .. Why don't we just kill anyone who has a 2nd opinion ^_^ .. hell yes to fascism! hell yes to communism :) ok ya thats stepping over the line .. but hey.. its an analogy only i could bring forward ..
-emplate |
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i think pappy's article crystallizes the current situation in the qmunity: it's not about fun anymore, it's about criticizing and shoveling cheap hits. i read the article and in the end i found myself asking, what is he trying to say...what's the purpose of this article? couldn't care less whether the promode makes q3 feel more like q1 or tetris.... the article almost made me feel shame that i'm part of pq network.
-ztn
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No one has pointed out that what Pappy wrote was an "editorial" and not an "article". Meaning that those are HIS personal opinions on the subject, and not an objective look to the subject if it was an "article".
Hoony, you then go and write a rebute that really comes off as an attack on Pappy. Why? Maybe because you are worried about that the "mainstream" media (quake wise people) think about this project? I'm sure you are since you have toned down quite a bit since the start of this whole thing. Like I said previously, you and the rest of any ProMode articles/comments/etc, come of as authoritive and "l33t", and it comes through as condescending.
This sort of attitude, and articles like the one you wrote, are just gona drive what you are trying to accomplish into the ground. Which really is a shame, since I think some of you have very valid opinions and honest reasons behind your efforts. Can't say the same thing for others.
Like I and others have said before, the name of the mod is problably the worst thing that it has going for it. Also, the fact that "pro" gamers are developing this mod. Come on, lets get realistic here. The only person that could be considered a Pro player is revelation, but he's only won a few UT tourneys that he even admited didn't practice for (gg UT). And don't even bring out Makas name. Its stated that he is a part of the "core design" team, but I haven't read a single post by him (other then at the very start of this project) on the subject, or a single article, or email, nothing.. zip. Just what IS his involvement in the "core design" team?. If you really want to appeal to the Pros, then you have to get them onboard. Otherwise you are left with silly europeans hanging out in #challenge, where all they talk about is good old Q1 days :). (that was a joke)
oh.. another problem. Where are all the Pro Mode servers? In case it wasn't noticed, its not explained at all in the files distributed with the mod, how to run a dedicated server. Yep, its beta, but if you want servers out there, you have to be nice to server admins like myself.
I hope this is not taken the wrong way, I ment it as just more of a reality check. I think "pro mode" or whatever might actualy be a good thing, but there needs to be a more professional and broad view towards its development. Meaning, you need more input from people like Pappy for example, and more people that play this game and actualy like it. Yes negative feedback can be a good thing.
.ki.OoGly
http://www.killerinstincts.com/ |
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Firstly, Hoony isn't CPM. He's the project leader and thus it is his job (doh) to have to do things like write rebuttals to diatribe like Pappy-R's rant.
When someone with a high profile uses their professional position to attack you (your project/work/whatever), you write an attacking piece based on what was written. This is life in a media driven world. Sad thing is Pappy-R made it his job to do this in the Quake community, and take things to a new low.
As for article vs. editorial. His opinion is one thing, he can have his views and stick them up his ass, but to write a piece on something which is outside his sphere (not being a player/webmaster/whatever in the pro/competitive quake community) for an audience which isn't what CPM is for is to say the least odd. It's as if he ranted on about how mod X for Unreal should be more like mod Y for Unreal. Where's the point to it all?
And quit it already with the "I don't like the word pro" shit. Fuck is that getting old. Perhaps CPM should be broken up into 2 flavours: "Challenge Pro Mode & PlanetQuake Llama Mode" then Pappy-R has totally valid reasons for ranting about it to the PQ audience. |
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is just what I was talking about above. For one thing, you don't seem to know just who Pappy is. For you information he IS involved in competitive gaming, he's a member of clan XENO. And a clan like XENO, is the audience that this mod is trying to appeal to. Now, if you say that is not true, then just who is it trying to apeal to? Q1 players? You sure you wanna say that?
As well, in case you didn't notice, i happen to like ProMode.. just a hint there.. |
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see your taking it the wrong way.. it was an editorial.. but if its so serious, then we'll just slap me or dysyngs name on it.. are we considered 'pro' players? .. i think we are.. or are we not? theres not much difference.. you will just say its my opinion.. then why don't you just say that about pappy :)
-emplate |
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| The name "Pappy-R" meant a whole lot of nothing to me until the 'PQ does CPM' story was posted, so no I didn't/don't know who pappy-r is. I don't live in the states so I don't really follow US clans. |
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| I got sooooo disapointed with vQ3, the game is entirly based on rail aim; I loved DOOM, the game was mindless distruction; I loved Quake, it took skill; didnt like Q2 so much as I found it too slow. But this Pro mode makes me want to play more Q3 more of the time, id should pay Hoony for this mod ;) |
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Yes, anyone can have an opinion. Yes, they're free to share it with the world. Likewise, other folks are free to bag on them for it. Saying "it's just my opinion" isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card. If your opinion is ill-informed, or if you're presenting it with a bad attitude, people aren't required to overlook those problems just because someone says "it's an opinion". Besides being stunningly obvious, that's not an effective apologia for anything.
I know that the xeno guys feel compelled to stick up for Pappy since they "adopted" him recently while he was writing an article about them. I hope though that they think a bit before they reflexively all get together in a united front and say "what he said goes for us too!" Great solidarity there, but speaking from experience, I'd say that's just about always not the best way to handle things.
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I'd just like to clear up a few things.
We (xeno) had been considering asking Pappy to join xeno before the article he wrote on us. When xeno and pappy all met up in Toronto so he could get the info for that article thats when the final decision was made. (ie. he didnt just get in because he wrote an article on us.)
Pappy is a fair person, I know his intentions where nothing more then to state what his opinions were on the subject, In all honesty if someone else had written that and sent it in to PQ they would have posted it. This brings us to really why is everyone getting so upset over his opinions? He's played the mod (and no not just one or a few games) He's played it enough to form an opinion on if he likes it or not. As well he's read the info out there ava. about the CPM. This leads me to believe that people are getting upset just because it was "Pappy-R" that made the comments. I think he was fair in the editorial.. he stated his points and asked the reader to download and try the mod for themselves before forming an opinion, he did not bash anyone personlly (including the CPM design team or a|citizen).
xeno as a clan will get behind what we feel is right and what we like/want. We will not get behind something "just because" Pappy says so.. Yes pappy is a member, but that does not link his opinion directly with xeno as a whole or to planetquake for that matter. It's a shame that all this flaming is going on (yes I've done my fair share) but the real issue here is bigger then just a mod.. Why? well this mod has the potential to part the community in 2 and to be involved with money tourneys. Lets face is its unlike any other mod out there (for q3, apart from maybe ctf if you consider that a mod.. its not really in q3 tho). I've stated before to the pro mode staff that I believe that more work should be done on the levels/maps then actual game changes (again, just my opinion), little changes don't bother me so much.. as they are expected. Its the bigger more noticed changes that cuzz me and many others to say.. hmmm this is going a little too far. Again, because this could be used in money tourneys I really believe that its important not to exclude any group of the community.. or at least their opinion on the matter. The biggest complaint I think I've heard in Q3 is not that the actual game sucks, but that the maps really suck ass. However, that is not really the case either (imo) in many cases the map could be prefectly fine, but its the item placement on that map that makes it play like shit, that includes, spawns, health, armor, powerups, ammo... I'd like to see some reworked maps (with id's permission of course) and basicly do what team abuse (believe it was citizen) did to some of the maps to make the TMP versions.
Just some thoughts
[xeno]Charger |
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>xeno as a clan will get behind what we feel is right and
>what we like/want.
I am absolutely sure nobody has a problem with what you like. You can play rail arena exclusively and nobody is going to say a word. But If you feel like bashing someone's work, please at least come up with valid arguments. Pappys editorial *could* be taken as offensive in a few spots and that's exactly what happened. If he'd written: "I don't like the changes, they make the game less fun for me" then I bet nobody would respond. Instead he launched (by accident, maybe) an attack on the MOD makers for making something they enjoy playing. Sad...
The question is: "do the changes make the game more fun to play?", not "do the changes make the game play like QW". If you find vanilla Q3 challenging, polished, well thought out, than say just that. The rest is not important.
>but the real issue here is bigger then just a mod.. Why?
>well this mod has the potential to part the community in 2
>and to be involved with money tourneys.
You are wrong, PM will not split the community in two, because as somebody pointed out, the community is already split. CTF, TF, DM, insert_a_MOD_here. Not to mention all the other FPP games like HL, Tribes or UT.
>Its the bigger more noticed changes that cuzz me and many
>others to say.. hmmm this is going a little too far.
That's exactly the problem - many people are looking at the changes sheet and say: "no, that can't be good, I don't like the sound of it" instead of actually trying those changes out to see how they work in the game. Nothing we did is without purpose.
>Again, because this could be used in money tourneys I
>really believe that its important not to exclude any group
>of the community
I'm sorry, but so far CPL is completely excluding the CTF community. They will also undoubtedly exclude the RA3 community when the MOD is released. Why aren't you bashing them?
>The biggest complaint I think I've heard in Q3 is not that
>the actual game sucks, but that the maps really suck ass.
To make it short: Q3 gets old very fast and that is why we are creating this MOD. We don't care what the rest of the world thinks, we want to do something we enjoy more than VQ3. If you haven't heard anybody complaining about Q3, then why are you so insecure about it? No way can PM catch on if all Q3 needs are new maps.
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shoulda called it [9]Mode.
It's the only way you would have pissed more people off :)
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Bashing? wtf, I wasn't bashing anything in my last post at all! nor was I presenting arguements for why I dont like or like about the CPM. I just finished saying that what Pappy said is not linked to xeno clan, but is his personal views, and I never said what the offical xeno clan view is... Like c'mon here.. did you read my post? (not to be a prick). I was simply stating why I thought there is such a big fuss over this mod.. Why are you guys always on the defensive?? god. but since you bought up the point of not splitting the community.. in Q1 its commonly held that Q1 was split between NQ and QW, however CTF and many other mod's were played exclusively (the same with q3). By splitting I mean that someone that played Q3 (any game style) would notice a considerable amount of change in the 2 major styles (ie. CPM and Q3) and I'm not insecure or afraid of anything.. man re-read my post.. Your getting all defensive over nothing. I was trying to maybe suggest that it would be kewl for the CPM to step up and make those changes to the maps!! (ie. trying to provide you with useful info in a non-threating manner =/ ) yet you somehow took my post the totally wrong way..
Once on the defensive, always on the defensive? |
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If it's not a QW makeover, then why do so many different columnists complain that it is while not a single one has complained about it being a Q2 makeover yet? Coincidence? An evil conspiracy? :)
These kind of assertive articles are exactly what you've asked and been warned for when you called this QW makeover "pro mode". You played big by calling it that, and you lost, just accept that with grace and have fun on the few pro mode servers that didn't disappear within two weeks after the last beta release coz they were always empty. Getting all upset because your own arrogance in calling this thing "pro mode" is backfiring at you now is - small.
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"i think pappy's article crystallizes the current situation in the qmunity: it's not about fun anymore, it's about criticizing and shoveling cheap hits. "
This quote embodies my biggest problem with the whole issue, but in the opposite way it was intended. It is the pro mode team and supporters that are "shoveling cheap hits" by dissing vq3 left and right in the name of promoting the mod. They claim that they are making the mod that is fun for them to play, which is fine, but then the common response to any criticism of it is met with "it wasn't meant for you, it was meant for pro's". Well I have news for you, besides for maybe fatality there are no quake pro's.
To be a pro player in any given sport means that you play that sport as your job. Meaning you make enough money off of it to live off of. No one on the pro mode team can claim this. So what is really meant is that the mod is intended for good players. Well, I'd be willing to bet that the split in the pro mode fans and the vq3 fans isn't along the lines of good players/bad players. It's more along the lines of people who like vq3/people who don't. There are quite a few good players of both sides of that split. So how is this mod any more pro than vq3? Or, more importantly, what gives the pro mode team the right to claim that vq3 is only fit for newbies? I see this as a major insult to anyone who happens to like vq3, including the pro's. I guess my point is that if you like pro mode then play it (personally I enjoy both vq3 and pm), and if it gets you playing q3 when you otherwise wouldn't, then great. However, the vq3 bashing and condescending attitudes should stop because they only serve to weaken the public view of the mod and widen the rift between the two groups of players unnecessarily. Guilting people into supporting your mod by calling them newbies unless they like it is a cheap hit if I ever heard one.
-LiQuiD
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We have the 'deathmatch'ers (1on1/tp), the 'capture the flag'ers, and the 'team fortress'ers. with cpm you're not adding a new group to this, you're splitting the 'deathmatch'ers into those who play vq3, and those who play cpm. Understand, or shall I draw a picture?
I suggest you go load quake3.exe and start getting yer chops up, cuz guys like fatality are earning the big bucks and having a blast doing it, for quite some time now.
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If excluding a percentage of the community that are ludites and have little or no valid arguments against a mod that they dont have to play then so be it. I think the promode should start shipping with a think before you spew on the net eula so we dont have to see the same tired arguments appearing on the net against it time and time again.
ProMode just play it or dont its that simple |
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First of all, I want to know if you see CPM staff dissing VQ3 left and right, or if you hit the ground running with the argument championed by Witz, Pappy, and the majority of the CH-US staff.
Answer honestly please. :)
So how is Challenge Pro Mode better suited for 'Professional' play than Vanilla Q3? It depends on what game mechanics you consider suitable for competition. I have no problem admitting the subjectiveness inherent in a volatile topic like competetive standards. Personally, I find the latest internal beta incarnations of CPM to be fast paced, acrobatic, dangerous, and rewarding -- qualities that I think a platform for competetive gaming should have. I accept the possibility that CPM could come off to the next guy as slow, clumsy, boring, and frustrating, even though that would be contrary to the feedback and analysis we're getting so far.
If you have issues with the way development is proceeding, or if you think that certain gameplay elements should be nixed, feel free to get a hold of me on IRC (enterthegame #challenge -- PST evenings) and explain why -- I'll be happy to hear you out, and I'll even pass your suggestions on to the rest of the dev team, provided they make sense. The physics and gameplay settings are nearing their final state, so if you have any particularily pressing issues that you'd like to bring to my attention, please do so. I look at alterations to the gameplay with an open mind, so if you have some settings that you'd like me to try out or, if you're in the US [pref. west] and would like to playtest some your suggestions with me on one of the test servers then dont hesitate to send a /msg my way. ;)
Peace,
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a|revelation |
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ye0wsa, look at this community splitting action!
and hey, why would community splitting not be a good thing? it _is_ a good thing. having more than one side in the world of quake3 will prolong its life if anything. it's sorta like keeping monopolies from forming so there's competitive prices in the business world.
long live quake |
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I'm interested to know what changes are planned since this last beta that was released. I've heard about the possible armor change and further improvements to air control but I'm not sure what's the exact nature of those changes are.
Thanks! |
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Hey, thanks for the sane and level-headed response rev. Much appreciated. Better than flamage.
I'm sorry to say that yes, I have seen the pm staff (particularly you on occasion, although you've been noticeably better about it lately) dissing vq3. A look through past truegamers forums will show this. Getting into name-calling matches with Witz (even though he can be annoying I admit), doesn't really help my view of "the team" either.
I think that you missed the point of my beef though. I like the direction the mod has taken for the most part (although I think >100 spawn health is a Good Thing). My major complaint is that the PR for the mod seems bent on dissing q3 for the sake of promoting pm. I happen to like vq3. Fatality happens to like vq3 (not that I'm in any way comparing my skills to his), as do many other very good players. What I don't like is being called a newbie because I happen to like vq3. I also happen to think that pm is a very fun mod. Do I think that pm is needed to "save" the competitive q3 scene? No, not really, the competitions are very exciting as is, as cplasia once again proves. However it is fun to play, and if that is the point of it in the end, then you guys have achieved your goals. My point is that I think the mod can be successful without pissing on anybody else in the process, and in the end you will save yourself a whole lot of controversy as a result. People keep asking "it's just a mod, why get all worked up about this and not RA3 or any other mod"? Well, it's because no other mod has claimed that you are a not a good player if you don't like it, which the pm team has pretty much insinuated, if not coming right out and saying it on various occasions. That's all I'm getting at.
To repeat: I like the mod. Keep up the good work.
-LiQuiD |
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The relevant posts on the Truegamers forums are about 3 months out of date. ;) Also, I don't know where you are getting the impression that the CPM team calls people who don't like the mod 'newbies'. The three most visible anti-PM people in my eyes are Moonshine, bustanut, and Matador, and I can't recall ever calling a single one of them a newbie.
--
rev |
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re: LiQ
Glad you like the mod. :)
re: vynn
Get a hold of me on irc and I'll explain it to you. ;)
--
rev |
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hehe. people can not diss a 'game' like Q3, but when mods are concerned everything becomes just an opinion.
maybe the next post can be about how bad it is to split the community?
or possibly about how something should never be called 'pro'.
alternatevely, someone might want to bring up the QW nature of pro-mode? |
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Actually, as far as the whole name thing goes -- we took it from Firingsquad's interviews with Carmack, where they discussed making an official 'Professional Mode' with more hardcore style game settings. So don't blame us, it wasn't our idea! :D
We have actually considered other names, but nobody was able to come up with something better than 'Challenge Pro Mode'.
Peace,
--
rev
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>We have the 'deathmatch'ers (1on1/tp), the 'capture the
>flag'ers, and the 'team fortress'ers. with cpm you're not
>adding a new group to this, you're splitting
>the 'deathmatch'ers into those who play vq3, and those who
>play cpm. Understand, or shall I draw a picture?
RA3 is not going to magically spawn new players out of nowhere. The mod will get a chunk of 1on1/TP or even CTF/TF community. Are you going to tell them how much they suck for splitting the scene? |
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| Rocket Arena is the only real way to play quake. |
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"RA3 is not going to magically spawn new players out of nowhere. The mod will get a chunk of 1on1/TP or even CTF/TF community. Are you going to tell them how much they suck for splitting the scene?"
RA3 is not going to make drastical and unnecessary changes to player movement, weapon physics, air control, etc to make it more like a previous game, and it doesn't claim to be for pro's.
Both RA and RA2 removed self damage, and RA2 halved the weapons switching time. Notice the subtlety and learn from it.
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rev: it was a joke. but since you brought up the topic anyway, might i suggest changing the name to 'Q3 made fun' or 'Q3 made bearable' or 'Q3 for non-insomniacs'. i bet that would make the real Q3 supporters very happy.
comming to think of it though, do these Q3 supporters really exist anyway? i only see people 'putting up with' or 'accepting' or 'practicing' or 'competing in' the game as it was 'meant to be', never 'enjoy' it.
as far as RA goes: doesn't it change the health/armor you spawn with? and maybe the weapons available when spawned? and maybe the ammo you carry? subtle indeed. |
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| Q3:C - "Quake 3: Challenge" |
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So what was his point? Seems to have been something like:
"Unlike RA, CPM will split the scene because it makes drastic and unnecessary changes, to make it more like QW, and claims to be for the pros". |
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| Please answer my question if you are capable. |
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Erm, isn't it obvious? RA isn't deathmatch, it's... RA; it doesn't split a community, it just grabs a bunch of players who may still deathmatch competitively if they want (the whole point of RA was to hone one's combat skills to improve as a deathmatcher). CPM is totally different, because it's pure deathmatch. Who the hell is gonna play both CPM and q3deathmatch?
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you got it all wrong, dude. let me explain...see, pro-mod is a free noncommercial mod, made for having fun...just as every other user created add-on. the way i see it, there's no reason of writing something negative (i'm sure you'll agree that pappy's article had a slightly negative undertone) about such a product...who are you protecting from what? sure at the end of his editorial he wrote "go see and decide yourself", but the reader's mindset was already set. now, look at the big picture. this is happening everywhere: suddenly everybody and their dog has become a gaming expert and critic. everybody has a view how things *should* be done. just read the comments about the recent doom announcement. see my point? here's another thought, i'm pretty sure the overall tone of the article would have been totally different, would pro-mode have been part of PQ network. but since it's not their domain, they can let it rip.
-ztn
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you got it all wrong, dude. let me explain...see, pro-mod is a free noncommercial mod, made for having fun...just as every other user created add-on. the way i see it, there's no reason of writing something negative (i'm sure you'll agree that pappy's article had a slightly negative undertone) about such a product...who are you protecting from what? sure at the end of his editorial he wrote "go see and decide yourself", but the reader's mindset was already set. now, look at the big picture. this is happening everywhere: suddenly everybody and their dog has become a gaming expert and critic. everybody has a view how things *should* be done. just read the comments about the recent doom announcement. see my point? here's another thought, i'm pretty sure the overall tone of the article would have been totally different, would pro-mode have been part of PQ network. but since it's not their domain, they can let it rip.
-ztn
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| I think that "not part of the PQ network." statement was a bit of a low blow, don't you? Do you honestly think that Pappy or PQ would do something like that? Well, maybe you do... But I know Pappy very well personally, I also know that the editorial he wrote has been taken the wrong way. For example that domination remark in the editorial was actually a joke about all the hysteria going on about CPM's release. He wasn't actually saying that the pro mode was going to try to dominate but that most people view it that way and there is a lot of freakin out going on. I don't know the exact story, but from what I've been told... At one time the gov. was going to bring out a 4 dollar bill, and everyone had become freaked out about it saying it would dominate the market.. (dont ask me why I dont know, just what I've been told) Thus, the dominate and the 4 dollar bill joke that didnt go over because of maybe the age difference? (I dont know when this 4 dollar bill thing happened). But that is just 1 example of how things were taken out of context or taken negatively. Another point, ztn as much as I admire your mapping, your assumptions are weak, you can not say that the editorial would be different if they were part of the PQ network.. that is a rather large assumption that you can not support. Please stick to the facts, instead of throwing mud. |
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To all the people who don't like CPM (Including but not directed at Pappy).....
Don't play it |
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Quake in all its incarnations(sp?) is just a GAME is it not. You would think ppl were discussing how a change in the government of {insert nation here} is going to cuase a Civil war.
Sheesh.. I never thought I'd see the day when a GAME could drive a political debate in any community. Hell, even regular Sport Fans (baseball, basketball etc.) dont get this fired up over how a new league or what have you will precivably ruin there favorite sport. ITS JUST A GAME. |
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ill kick everyones ass at yahoo-hearts..
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While you may blast Pappy-R apart for his editorial, call him names, say how misinformed he is, how he should do his research, the fact remains that the majority of Q3 players will see ProMode in a similar light. The prefix "pro" will give them the initial scare, then the changed physics and gameplay will finish off their disappointment.
While I have less and less doubt that ProMode will become a mainsteam platform, it would be interesting to see what you would call the "finished" product.
P.S. revelation, how can you EVER just shrug off the truegamers debates as "3 months out of date". Just because something happened a month or 2 ago, it is less relevant now? Have you apologized to Witz for your (uncalled for, I might add) name calling and accusations? I don't think so. I completely agree with Liquid, that while some opponents of ProMode have indeed been overly eager and stepped over the line sometimes, their fervor was caused in the first place by the CPM team's attacks on Quake3, as shown by the posts not only on TrueGamers forums (which have since disappeared into the proverbial void due to their merger with XSreality), but pretty much on every message board read by the competitive gamers, from shugashack, to cached, to the challenge network.
For once, Andrew, admit to what you've said in the past, and at least apologize. I appreciate the new found tolerance you've acquired for the opposing viewpoint, however at least find it in yourself to admit that yes, you've posted some shit which you might have regretted later, instead of blaming it all on your brother Exodus. :P |
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low blow? that whole article was a low blow if you ask me. and yes, i do believe the whole article would have been different...have you ever seen them writing anything negative about their own affiliates? no. pq is business, they have ceased to be a fansite a long time ago.
but, it seems you totally lost my point. my question was, and still is, what was the purpose of that article? what was his point? why does everything have to be torn apart, analyzed, criticized...instead of just playing the damn game and having fun as it's meant to be? this sounds hard, but to me those kind of articles only seem as a cheap attempt to gain some recognition and hits. just as the current trend requires.
-ztn
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i do, however, agree that the pro-mode name is a bit overkill ;)
-ztn
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A good post by GreySeer on Challenge-au about promode!
Go check it out, especially all of you that hasn't tried promode yet.
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It was an editorial, not an article. The difference being that an "article" is backed up by and represents the views of the site as a whole. Where as an "editorial" is just one guys opinion.. What was the purpose of that editorial? to express Pappy's "Opinion" on the subject.. nothing more, nothing less.. You can agrue against someone's opinion until your blue in the face.. but it probably won't change their personal views. All this useless flaming and bashing is all missing the issue, People are too focus'd on who wrote that editorial.. when it comes down to it.. its just 1 persons opinion and they are entitled to it.. and because we dont live under facism he is allowed to express that opinion.. weither you agree with it or not is beside the point. It still remains and always will be one persons opinion. As I stated before it was highly taken the wrong way to begin with..
[xeno]Charger |
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you can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the situation. there are aspects in promode i don't like either, but here's the difference: i wouldn't go and write an editorial about my opinions and post it on pq. yea, i'm entitled to do that, but why would i?
"As I stated before it was highly taken the wrong way to begin with.." so what are you considering the "right way"?
-ztn
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[xeno]Charger - aside from all the other issues, where I come from an "editorial" very much reflects the official position of the publishing entity (in this case PQ). For example, newspaper editorials are not just the opinions of a random staff member, but the newspaper's most senior editors. They reflect the newspapers position on a subject.
This is partly what caused me to react - it seemed like PQ was squelching our mod with negative rhetoric - it seemed like a pretty crass and ill-informed beatup.
It may have been "taken the wrong way" but that is debatable. Whichever way I look at it, the editorial still comes across as a "beatup".
However, regardless of whether it was a "beatup" or not, if soembody wants to pen their opinions in the "editorial" of major Web network then they should expect those opinions to be examined closely by me. I am entitled to do that - and that's what a "rebuttal" is. I'm not trying to change Pappy-R's opinions, and he is quite free to express them. But I am also quite free to take a damn close look at what he says.
I probably shouldn't have poked as much fun at him as I did, but some of the things he said were just mind-boggling. If someone states an opinion without much of anything in the way of a reasonable argument to back it up, the fact that it is an "opinion" does not absolve it from close scrutiny. As Johnny Law said, opinions are not "get out of jail free" cards.
However, I'll take your point and watch my tendency to poke fun at the anti-pro mode brigade in future. |
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ztn, I know that the editorial was taken the wrong way because I have spoken to Pappy on the phone and I know what he actually meant by it.. I'm not going to sit here and explain each point. I shouldn't have to.. This type of editorial is found all over the place.. its like getting a bad movie review.. its just the reviewers opinion, and people know that just because that one reviewer doesnt like that movie it does not mean that every person at the paper or mag. that he writes for doesnt like the movie as well.
If nothing negative was ever said about anything how would improvements be made? Maybe Pappy should have be a little clearer in his editorial.. but whats done is done. It's time to move on.
Hoony, I like I said.. if a movie reviewer for a paper gave a bad review that does not mean that every employee hates the movie.. You dont really think that Pappy rounded up all the PQ employees and started some kind of march against the CPM? I can assure you this is not the case. I can also say that if I wrote that editorial (or anyone else) and submitted it to PQ, they probably would have printed it as well.. In point of fact I think there is a lot of potential in the CPM, and my main concern that it DOES get picked up.. but ONLY if its good enough to do the job.. you are the only ones I know that are trying to improve the gameplay of the game for serious gamers (like myself) I want to see it become a success BUT only if its as good as it could be. Thus, I'm being harder on the CPM then I normally ever would concerning any other mod.. I really think that you should stop defending attacks and say look.. this is why we did this.. like what was your reasoning for changing hit tones (I'm curious). If you have a logical reason why not state it for everyone to know? Like I've said before I've given my 2cents worth to rev a few times (in a friendly helpful manner). You shouldn't take Pappy's editorial as what PQ thinks.. Hellchick the site director hasnt even played the mod.. how can she agree or disagree with the editorial? she can't.
It would be nice to see a list of features and changes that the CPM brings to the game and a reason for each.. even if that reason is "the play testers felt this was the best setting for this feature" which is a valid reason (but you may need more playtesters in that case..)
I have a number of opinions I'd be willing to disscuss if you or any of the other CPM design team are interested (I'm not going to waste time typing them on a msg board) |
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| The name "Q3: Challenge" has already been taken by another mod. |
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(Damn DSL service.) I'm glad to see that some xeno peeps have responded in sane ways to my post. And so many other interesting posts to read too... well, well.
I'm croggled again by the insistence on a lot of people's parts to make this into a soap opera. These obsessions about whether the mod's name has the word "pro" in it; the exact count of QW-like features in it; what the motives are for its creation; whether the CPM team have "elitist" attitudes; how Hoony dated your sister and broke her heart; the fact that a|revelation uses a crappy brand of toothpaste... who the hell cares?
As for dumb things said by CPM team members or their supporters in the past: yes, there have been many. As there have been from the other side of the fence, yes? If you want to find a straw-man argument to have fun beating it up, you won't have to look far. Yay, that's useful.
The "splitting the community" argument is the one possibly valid complaint that could be raised against CPM as a whole (as opposed to specific gameplay changes). But, reality check: at this point, I don't think that the CPM team are going to stop and go home. So what is this argument going to accomplish? Make them feel bad?
And has this "splitting the community" concern been successful in stopping the creation of _any_ mod, _ever_? Contrary to what some people have said, CPM is not unique. There have been many situations, since Q1, where an established player base in a particular game mode has been "invaded" by another mod in that mode. (Notably in CTF and TF, but yes, DM too.) In the end it's all good. People play what they like.
Finally, as for the assertion that Pappy's article is being picked on because of who wrote it: nope. At least, not by me. I've stated the reasons I didn't like the editorial, and those were indeed my reasons. It's far, far from the worst thing I've read on the Internet, but there are several misrepresentations and rhetorical ploys in there that really set my teeth on edge... I'd rather not line-itemize them here. So either take my word for it, or assign me ulterior anti-Pappy motives, whatevah.
The reason it's getting some attention, as opposed to some random anti-CPM ramble archived on the TG messageboards (for example), is because of its platform as a PQ editorial. Surely anyone can see why that does matter. The almost continuous petty behavior surrounding CPM has been a real disappointment to me, although I guess not much of a surprise. Wouldn't it have been cool if Pappy had used the PQ editorial platform to present a detailed, balanced, accurate look at the project, maybe help to settle folks down and bring in some fresh perspectives from outside? Instead he broke out "WQW" as a leadoff, and it didn't get much better from there. D'oh.
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[xeno]Charger - I don't mind players being hard on us, especially if they want to make the mod better as a result but also if they just want to argue it's merits. Once again, however, anyone who presents an opinion in a high profile forum like a "PQ editorial" can expect close scrutiny of their rhetoric and their arguments.
I agree we haven't produced a list of features and a decent explanation of them. We are actually discussing doing this right now internally and I think it's a great idea. We're also going to prepare a FAQ with our "official" response to the most commonly asked questions. |
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I noticed a few people see a number of features in CPM come from QuakeWorld and see that as a reason to bash it. Did any of these guys ever stop to think that maybe it's not because they want to turn it into QuakeWorld but because these features make it a better game? Did they also notice that most of the features are *like* QW but not *exactly* like QW because maybe in QW said feature needed to be toned down? ( e.g. Using rocket spamming to pin an opponent down )
Although I have to admit, I'm not sure the reason why backpacks were included, I think it gives the players too much ammo. |
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Ken,
Of course I admit it. You think my hair is falling out due to genetics? The past 6 months have been akin to a crash course in PR for me. Some of the feedback I got through TG was excellent, but my gut feeling tells me it was a pyrrhic victory. Luckily, I stopped arguing and started to get some work done.
Also, I think I probably would have been significantly less annoyed at the time if people had bothered to include a premise or two in their arguments. Many of the arguments and retorts being posted 'round the world on the subject (both then and now) are pompous and baseless -- all conclusions, no reasoning.
Another thing to consider:
When I said "the TG arguments are outdated", I was referring to my own stance on certain issues. I have learned a great deal about game design between then and now. Maybe I should rephrase that statement as, "*my* TG arguments are outdated".
--
rev
(cg_damageKick 0 addict) |
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Well since "Quake 3: Challenge" has already been taken, here are few other ideas if you are, in fact, considering the idea of renaming the mod:
"challenge.world-quake"
"challenge.world-arena"
"Extreme Arena"
"Extreme Quake"
"Quake 3: Extreme"
"challenge.extreme-arena"
"challenge.extreme-quake"
"Adrenaline Arena"
"Adrenaline Quake"
"Quake 3: Adrenaline"
"challenge.adrenaline-arena"
"challenge.adrenaline-quake"
"Impulse Arena"
"Impulse Quake"
"Quake 3: Impulse"
"challenge.impulse-arena"
"challenge.impulse-quake" |
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In my last post I wasnt defending Pappy by saying I would be harder on the CPM because I want it to be so great as possible.. from now on anything I post should be considered my views only and not referring to any past event unless stated =]
It would also be great to get an ETA on the final product.. for a couple reasons..
1) so that we all know how much time we have to voice concerns..
2) so that we have time to prepare if indeed the mod does get picked up for major tounreys (which are just around the corner)..
Have you thought about doing a question and answer session on irc?? if done right you could get a lot of good input that way.. (contact me if your not sure what and how I mean)
As well.. why not do some public beta testing involving the top clans and 1on1 players.. I'm sure that if u appoarch them with the attitude "we'd really like to get your input to make our mod better" you'd find a lot of ppl more responsive to the idea. If you can set up east and west servers and then try to set up a few matches on these servers with the top clans and 1on1ers you'd for sure get a lot of good playtesting and input.. And lets face it these are the ppl your trying to please.. it only makes sense to me to get them to want to play it and test it. =]
[xeno]Charger |
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>I agree we haven't produced a list of features and a
>decent explanation of them. We are actually discussing
>doing this right now internally and I think it's a great
>idea.
It would be even better idea NOT to document ANY changes at all. That way peolpe woud actually have to TRY the MOD out to find out what has changed. They would either like it or not and we would be perfectly fine with that. Instead guys like I_wont_say_their_name look at the list and go: "nah, I won;t even try it, it's 100% QW". |
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> It would be even better idea NOT to document ANY changes at all.
You're probably joking, but lemme respond to that anyway.
You can't stop people from being dumb. Those that bust out the "100% QW" type comments, you think they're basing that on the list of features now? I mean, check out this from the name thread:
"All the cool jumps on the CPM maps are QuakeWorldish, telefragging returns, the weapons are to QuakeWorld specs, etc, etc, etc."
Of the three things he mentions before he gets to "etc, etc, etc", none of them are true. And I'll bet he didn't come to his conclusions by carefully poring over the CPM readme.
The people who don't have anything worthwhile/accurate to say are going to be that way regardless of how well you document stuff. Forget about `em. What you should worry about is the people who have an active and open mind -- the more information you give them, the better. Not only does that help the process of mod development, but it's also a good demonstration that you don't think that you have to hide anything from them "for their own good".
P.S. Charger is probably right about the playtesting. It would be a headache, but it might help make a better mod, and it would almost certainly be good for PR.
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"why not do some public beta testing involving the top clans and 1on1 players [...] If you can set up east and west servers and then try to set up a few matches on these servers with the top clans and 1on1ers [...]"
There is a world outside America you know.
Hoony for example is an Australian.
Australia is a country outside America.
There's many more such countries.
Hope this helped. |
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> There is a world outside America you know.
> Hope this helped.
I am sure that the Canadian clan xeno thanks you for your insight. :-P
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I meant no harm by my statement.. the more playtesting the better, and Yes I am Canadian ;]. When I said top clans and 1on1 players I was NOT only considering North American clans and players. I meant the TOP clans and 1on1 players!, However when I said east and west servers I was referring to my local situation as part of North America and not thinking global, as that’s where I live and would play, should I have listed off all the top players and clans countries and proceeded to state which part of that country the servers should be placed in?? (that would be a little stupid wouldn’t it, plus I don’t have all that information). Just because I said (east and west) doesn’t mean I don't think it shouldn’t be done anyway else. Cut a guy some slack (this is getting off topic, why couldn't u have just said something productive? instead of just pointing out an obvious over sight on my part in an insulting tone. People are always so ready to take anything you say on a msg board the wrong way, and feel they must come rushing in with some lame comment that doesn't help the situation at all.
Lighten up.
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I think that there is a certain superiority "attitute" that SOME PM players have over VQ3 players. I think it can be shown in citizen's comment from way up near the top, "I believe it will be quite easy for a Pro Mode player to dominate Vanilla Quake 3 tournaments." I admit this may have been tongue in cheek, but it's like the arguements that Q1 players had with Q2 players. The whole "I'm better than you because my game requires more skill" type thing, unfortuantely PM changes VQ3 into a wholly different game, for better or for worse (it's purely a matter of someone's opinion).
This is probably some of the problem, because it can lead to a split in the community, like there was between Q1, and Q2 players. Because although the gameplay of Pro Mode is essentally the same (Kill the other player with the same weapons) the whole physics, et al, have been changed. I think in Pappy-R's editorial he tried to point out that there is a possibility of PM being adopted for competition level play, and this kind of thing will result in a split.
For example... what if all the CPL events were for QW only, no Q3 at all? |
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-For example... what if all the CPL events were for QW
-only, no Q3 at all?
It would be a heaven on earth!
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When citizen wrote "I believe it will be quite easy for a Pro Mode player to dominate Vanilla Quake 3 tournaments", I don't think he was trying to express superiority. Rather, I believe he was trying to address the commonly held fear that playing CPM will degrade your VQ3 skills.
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revelation |
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You may be right. But even in that case it looks like that's what he's saying (to me at least) and this may also be the reason why some people may find the term "Pro Mode" a bit offensive.
But regardless, I think that CPM needs to be thought of as a different game that uses the same engine, because people are going to be doing comparisons saying one requires "more skill" than the other. And I find that kind of like saying Baseball requires more skill than Criket. |
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COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL!
:) |
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