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Tuesday, 23 May 2000 -
DieharD-r3v on CPM3 (Use and Abuse) $comment_count ?>
DieharD-r3v (POV) plays Cynik (clan Knightmare) in a fun 7-frag game on jude's new map, q3jdm10. It's the first demo I've seen on this new map, by the creator of the popular q3jdm8a, and what a great player to show us what the gameplay on CPM3 is like.
Download Diehard.zip [0.4 MB]
Comments
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| the "trick" the spectators are talking about is not due to any promode physics, but a regular strafe+circle jump, just like the jump across the middle of tourney4. |
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| If you've spent some time on cpm3, then this demo really won't show anything new/spectecular. Considering DH's reputation, i expected something different. Don't wanna take away anything from DH, he probably hasn't played the map b4 (1-2 times MOST) and the other guy probably even less. |
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you shoulda have seen the air-control in beta 18.. now _that_ rocked :)
using the air control you could go from the bouncepad to YA/LG via the RL, ie a 270 degree turn right... iv'e tried and tried but i cant do it with beta 27 :(
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err the bunny accel is slightly increased from normal in pro mode.. i dont know if that jump is possible in vanilla q3 either. try it. :) maybe it is, who knows.
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rev |
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| it's possible but it is a bitch to pull off. Took me 5 mins to accomplish it once. |
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rewler map jude! good work ;)
If you could make the Lamp that is located right under the RL (at MH Room) solid, so that you could Jump on it, you would be able to get on it via the Bouncepad and then Jump to YA/LG ;) Would be a nice one ...
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this map is great. I hadn't played it until I saw mention of it here so I loaded it up to take a look. But of course I think it is great in vanilla quake3 not PM in my opinion just like CPM4. You can do every single jump in vq3 that you can in PM if you have better timing. What is basic in PM becomes difficult to master in vq3. It took me 30 mins of game play to start to begin to nail all the jumps constantly. Here is my list of jumps I have found,if you see I am missing some let me know. Maybe I am wrong and there are PM specific jumps but as of yet I haven't found any.
1. MH doorway to LG/YA in single jump(this one is one of the toughest, easier in two jumps)
2. LG/YA stairs to the RL doorway in two jumps(takes timing but not tough)
3. RL doorway to the four +5 health bubbles in single jump(takes timing but not tough)
4. 50 health to YA in single jump(easy, easier in two jumps)
5. YA to 50 health in single jump(easy easy)
6. PG ammo to YA in single jump(takes timing, not hard...easier in two jumps)
7. YA to PG ammo in single jump(easy easy)
8. RL doorway to LG/YA in single jump(easy easy)
9. RL doorway to above jumppad (easy easy)
10. RJ up to the lights in room with RL doorway, MH door way, LG/YA
11. Jumppad down from RL doorway to MH doorway(extremely tough, only done it twice)
Well that is my run down in of jumps I found in around 40 mins total of play on the map. I bet you are asking what does this have to do with the demo? Well this demo shows nothing that can't be down in vq3 so I dont think it is representing PM that well. |
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Give PM a bit of time. In the cpm3 Demo you actually se NO use of PM physics.
Try to get from Jumppad at YA/LG to MH and even directly to RL ... don't think this could be done in vanilla Q3A.
All the Tricks that can be done in PM just need to come up. It's been released on Friday last week, so you can't judge by the actual knowledge of Jumps ... |
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| Your right, this demo does not show off Pro Mode physics very well. I believe this demo was posted to show the map off then Pro Mode physics. The Pro Mode physics DO enable tons of tricks that arent possible in vq3. Download the Exodus demo's and see what I mean. Pro Mode has only been out for a couple of days, so it will take some time for the tricks to surface. The really cool thing is that all of the tricks I have seen in Pro Mode so far are NOT FPS dependant like a lot of vq3 ones, which is a definite plus. |
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| Actually most of the more useful jumps have seen from Exo on CPM4 I have been doing in vanilla quake3 from the begining. As for having not seen any fps tricks in PM then you didn't watch Exo's demo. He does two jumps that are fps tricks. I give you the fact most of the jumps in PM are double jumps instead of fps tricks which is a good thing. As for this demo not showing off PM; well I was under the wrong impression these were. My fault entirely and for that I am sorry. |
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Re: the bouncepad;
"11. Jumppad down from RL doorway to MH doorway(extremely tough, only done it twice)"
this is one of the most commonly used ways to get MH/GL or RL from that floor level, its simple to do in PM.
If you have only done it twice it must be your techinique.
Actually in Beta18 (when the air control was blee+) from that bouncepad you could turn up towards the RL then steer out away from the MH/GL room and land on the YA/LG ledge :) was quite caw.
Another trick was to use the other bouncepad, steer around towards RL and pick it up on the fly before landing on the main bouncepad, then use that to steer into MH/GL or to YA/LG.
That was hard :P
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| I am speaking of vanilla quake 3 here. I know it is basic in PM, that is why I dont like PM physics so far. They make everything that takes practice and timing in vq3 simple enough someone with little play knowledge to pull off. Do the same jumppad trick I talked about in vq3 and see how easy it is. Heck take any jump I said and do them in vq3 compared to PM and see how much more imporant your timing is. |
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| Valid point Simon. I do see how PM makes vq3 tricks much easier. But you have to understand that all of these maps were made before the current PM physics. They were mostly catered toward vq3 physics. When you think about it, if the tricks are THAT hard, do you actually think that players will use them in game during a heated battle? Where if they fail a jump, it can mean loosing a game? If you watch Q2 demos from Thresh and the likes, most of the tricks were NOT used because they couldn’t execute them 100%. Actually, as I remember, Thresh only used a fraction of the known q2dm1 tricks at that time. Now take a look at Q1 Lakerman/Kane/Reload/Thresh demos on dm4. All the tricks (including fancy RJ's) were pretty easy and could be executed by just about anyone. But, the trick was to know at what time to execute them. And few players mastered that even to this day. I might sound q1 biased, and I guess I am even though I was never in the Q1 or Q2 community. I have barely played both games against humans (5 times max for both games), but I did spend some time watching demos of both. |
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RE Simon:
I dont think it makes the game easier, just because some jumps are easier to do with the new physics. Many jumps will still get discovered that no one thought were even possible (take for example the RL -> QUAD jump in dm2 (QW)), it took a while before people could do it.
How well you can use aircontrol to dodge rockets, trick your enemy etc. is what shows real skill. Jumps doesnt show anything. I myself can execute most of the known Q2 jumps on q2dm1, but I'm still not a star player in my country.
In vq3 you cant really dodge anything while in mid-air and dodging rockets with the cpm physics requires lots of skill as it does in qw. Good players will be even more separated from the not so good ones as they will be more difficult to hit and they will be able to do real tricky jumps that requires very good control.
If you think a game gets easier, because newbies can do certain jumps that were difficult in vq3, then I think you're wrong. If newbies can do these tricks, it simply means you can do even harder tricks that they cant. If the newbies can move faster in the maps it also means they'll come faster to you -> you get more frags. |
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| The topic says it all. I would like to mention that its really nice to see discussions take on that are valid and not just bashings. Keep it up guys! ;-] |
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| Desti but in the current "playable" maps it is false. I LAN everyday with friends who comprise newbie(just started playing q3 and never touched nq/qw or q2) to experienced(began early in nq or q2) and in vq3 the newbies can hardly make any helpful trick jumps. Yet in PM they can do 90% of the known jumps to me. We mainly play TDM and CTF not real big on dueling so the maps we play often are DM6(tmp),DM7,DM8,DM12(tmp)DM14(tmp),CTF2,CTF3,wCTF1,wCTF2,wCTF3. Sure the newbies aren't as fast or as accurate but that is something many PM people didn't like about vq3. They didn't like the aspect of a game being mostly about aim. Which is pretty dumb because if you look at any of the current top qw players or q2 players aim is what stands out most along with map knowledge. All FPS rely heavily on aim, but that is another story. Back to making it easier, so here we have in vq3 a huge distinction between levels of players. You can tell by the aim, the speed, the map knowledge and the use of the map tricks just who is the experienced and who is the unexperienced. Then we move to PM, now the distinction is blurred alittle because the newbies are doing the same tricks as the experienced. So which one shows the better players easier? If you said vq3 you win. So as of right now you can tell experienced from not as experienced easier in vq3 then you can in PM. Until someone makes maps directly for PM physics where it is hard to pull off even in PM or until someone shows me a useful hard PM only trick(other then ones I have already mentioned in other threads which is few) I wont see my opinion on the issue changing because of the facts I just provided. |
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Don't get me wrong, but saying that vq3 is better game because some tricks are harder to master than in cpm is.. well, wrong.
There are easy/hard/impossible tricks in vq3, and there are easy/hard/impossible tricks in cpm. Different is, that without air control almost every jump is a trick, it makes games very boring, coz players don't use'em in important matches being afraid that if they fail, they'll lose the match.
Air control gives you more freedom in game, there are plenty of things that your able to do now. While you are playing you don't think when you have to make which jump, but you are thinking about where is your enemy, and if you have to jump to go faster (catch him or run away) or walk to go slower (and make no noise). And that is the biggest advantage of cpm physics.
I don't want to watch a top players demo and say "well. he lost this match, coz he made his jump 0.01 sec to late", I want to say "wow, this was amazing, he RJ-ed out of lava and railed the guy before he hit the ground!"
I want to see players fighting against their enemys, not against physics..
Notices the fact that ppl are jumping in about 90% of game. That means that in vq3a they don't have control over their body in 90% of time.
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I think you missed my point. My point is those jumps people are calling trickjumps vq3 arent trickjumps anymore. For example there are lots of jumps people dont even think are trickjumps when they play QW, but if someone would remove aircontrol from QW these jumps would be called trickjumps (for example the jump to the other side of that circular area in dm3). Try reseting your jump database (in your head), play some cpm and come back here and give us a list of every trickjump. I'm quite sure that list would 1/10 the length of your current list, because some of the jumps arent trickjumps anymore.
And I agree 100% with HighlandeR. Tactics, aim and movement (while in a fight) is what 1on1s and TPs are all about. |
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High:
I never said better because that is strictly a opinion matter. What I did say was a bigger distinction of player class in vq3 and PM. Which I have bases for in my comparison.
Desti:
Depends what you consider a trick jump. What I consider a trick jump is a jump that is used for a benefit or shortcut. If you look at my earlier lists of jumps from earlier thread 99% of the jumps I list are trick jumps. They either are a faster route somewhere, a time saving manuever or a feature benefit. As I said before I dont need to go play CPM, I do everyday. My dayly LANs are democratic in nature, I dont hold all the power. As some of my friends like PM more then vq3 we play that. Both games get equal play time so I think I have a good understanding of what I am talking about here. |
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Cool cpm3 jump :)
That jump is fucking hard. It's possible to jump straight to the mega, but I've done it only once and I wasnt recording when I did it...
That should prove that pro mode opens a new universe for trick jumping :) |
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| You say that newbies can 'hang' with you in CPM? Now, this is really strange because maybe, just maybe, your game set was based on the 'all aim' of vq3. Now you acually have to *think* (new concept, eh?)! Now, you also say that in qw, the thing that makes a player better is their aim? Okay, explain to me how Thresh was the best player in the world, when his aim was on the bottom of the list of "Pro" QW players of his time? Have you ever seen the man play against other players that had MUCH better aim then him? He knew what do to and when to do it in every situation. He wasnt fancy, he didnt do any 'spectacular' moves, he just plain out *OUTSMARTED* his opponent. As for the concept that newbies are good in CPM in relation to you. Uhm, is it just me, or are we ALL newbies in CPM? The thing has been out for only a couple of days! |
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First you think I said "better" now you think I said I cant hang. What I am saying for the third time is the distinction between players is more obvious in vq3 then PM. Do you understand that? You can try to twist it anyway you like but that is what I have been saying this entire time. I have said it black and white this entire time as well. Not only did I say that I told you why I think this and you have yet to dispute those facts. You just agreeded saying valid point. Then you said all these maps were made before PM physics were finalized. Which is almost true but many of these maps were touted as made for PM.
QW aim:
What I did say is if you look at "average" qw players and you look at the top qw players now you will see that the top qw players have incredible shaft aim. I took a look at one of Para's qw demos recently and his shaft aim was incredible. Then I look at some old top qw'ers demo and their shafter aim is nowhere near that good. So what I was saying is qw has evolved into a game that depends on good aim. People have mastered the maps strategy now they are playing on reactions and aim with map stat as a side.
Thresh:
I would never say he was the best, he played in a time things were just developing as far as map strategy. He missed both the peak of nq/qw and q2. So there is no way I would say he was the best. I would say he was the best at his time of the people he played. But if he played anyone now he would get beaten. People have evolved past the pure map strategy phase, and are now into a new realm.
Newbies:
Not sure how long you have been gaming but I know majority of my skills have carried over from nq to q2 and now to q3. I picked up the new strafe jumping in PM in a matter of hours to where I was really comfortable with it, think a newbie could do that? I found jumps and shortcuts in minutes, think a newbie could do that?
In conclusion:
Next time you think you know what I say re-read what I wrote, you might surprise yourself. |
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IMO in cpm the difference between a good player and a newbie is more obvious than in vq3. The details that tells if a player is good arent the same as in vq3. In cpm those "trick" jumps you're talking about wont tell if someone's good, but how well he can use aircontrol and weapon combos does.
You cant look for the same things if you compare a q2 and a qw player. In q2 you would look for rg aim, ability to use q2 physics etc. and in qw you would look for things like his aim and ability to use aircontrol and of course tactics and they arent the same in those games.
Simon I think you should be more open minded and forgetting those trick jumps of yours...
btw. I'm sick of commenting your comments, so I wont reply anymore... and it's almost 5 am in the morning, so time to get some sleep... |
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| Promode demos are so much more entertaining, and the maps just own. gg |
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