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Tuesday, 13 June 2000 -
Planet Quake Does Promode $comment_count ?>
According to a Planetquake editorial by Pappy-R, "the Pro Mode Mod is aiming for world domination and it's picture on the four dollar bill". The editorial is a poorly researched, mis-informed, scaremongering beatup. Pappy-R has rather clearly penned his editorial to save the world from domination by the Challenge Promode (CPM). He defends Q3A against the threat of CPM becoming a competition standard.
Good stuff - CPM must be doing better than we thought.
From the perspective of the CPM team, we're making the mod to be as challenging and exciting for expert players as we can. We are hoping the community of expert players likes it, naturally, and we would love to see it used in competition. However, we have no intention of "forcing" it's adoption by event organisers or by players (nor could we). Whether CPM succeeds or not as a competition standard will be entirely up to the players and event organisers themselves.
If it's any good, it stands a good chance of getting the thumbs up. And there is nothing that Pappy-R can do about that. It obviously sticks in his craw, because he tries his darndest to beat the mod into the ground.
Any Old Joe
As far as I can tell, Pappy-R read a|citizen's article on Gamepig, and must have had a quick look over the CPM pages on Challenge.World. I never received an email from the guy, and to my knowledge neither did anyone else on the team. As well as inaccuracies, the editorial contains some really bizarre assertions. Here's one that had me incredulous:
"The mod is being made and supported by "the pros" in the Quake community. Well, some but not all, and there are some high calibur names involved here. Your first choice is that if someone, anyone, wins money at a tournament, does that make their opinion more valid than any other player that forked over the bucks for the game? I say no. More valid? Certainly not. As valid, yes, for we all have the same stake in the game".
Here Pappy-R suggests that complex design issues can be decided equally well by any joe who forked over money to buy the game. "We all have the same stake in the game" he says. Simply unbelievable nonsense. He can't understand why we would want to have experienced gamers design, test and tweak the CPM settings.
The CPM approach to gameplay design is to delegate it to a "core team" of experienced players. We would have liked to involve more players, but it's hard to manage a lot of people and all of us are working part-time on this. Over time, the list of players who have had input into the game design has grown and changed, and a great number of players have been involved in LAN testing sessions, but the "lead designer" (if you like) has been a|revelation throughout. Currently he is finalising some remaining issues (like armor values and weapon respawns) through LANs with the team abuse guys, including a|citizen.
Pappy-R suggests it's how much money a player has won which determines their place on our design team. What nonsense. Take a|revelation - he is the lead designer because of his intelligence, his experience, his energy, and his open mind. Revelation is willing to consider gameplay elements from a wide range of games (he has played UT competitively and successfully).
Promode Will Take Over
Pappy-R tries to scare us that if promode is used at senior competition level, then every vanilla Q3A server in existance will be snuffed out as the shadow of darkness falls:
"Oh, but wait, these things are for "pros" only, meaning that you don't need to worry about it if you never plan on entering competition play. But let me explain a bit about that. For a game to be used a certain way (mod) at the highest level of competition, it will and must be the standard at all the lesser levels. No team or player will want to spend his time practicing his heart out and playing a game that will change as drastically as this mod proposes, once a certain level is reached. Clan ladders, 1 on 1 ladders and the like will have to play a game one way or another. There is no way to cut that part out of the community, period".
Looking into his super-duper Planetquake crystal ball, Pappy-R intones: "it will and must be the standard at all the lesser levels". I'm not sure how or why he thinks this must be so, but Pappy-R said so and he writes for Planetquake.
Are you scared yet?
Of course, for this scenario to happen it would require either (1) all server admins to force promode down the throats of the true Q3A believers despite their will or (2) everyone to fall under the mesmerising spell of promode and be hypnotised into liking it.
Wanna be QuakeWorld
Next Pappy-R is rude enough to label our mod "Wanna be Quakeworld (WQW)". Quite funny though. There are obvious similarities between CPM and Quake 1 or QW, but that is because those game design elements were given the "thumbs up" by our designers, and not because we set out to "remake QW". There's a big difference, but facts never stood in the way of this cheap and popular argument so why should Pappy-R be any different than the rest who accuse us of "remaking QW"?
Taking a few elements out of context does not make CPM "like QW". The CPM just has too many variables from Q3A itself (such as a bucketload of powerful weapons, for one). The end result is gameplay that has some of the best features from Q1, but no way in hell is it much like QW. Try asking someone who plays QW if CPM is much like QW.
Armour
Next, Pappy-R speculates that our Armour/ Weapons changes may lead to imbalance in the gameplay. A lot of experienced players find that Q3A gameplay overly favours aim and that strategy (resource control) tends to reduce to "doing the armor circuit" and getting the MH. This is quite playable, but the question is whether or not there could be even more to the gameplay - and that is what CPM is all about.
Now you might speculate whether our design decisions will work or not, but until you see the final mod speculations are just that - guesswork . The armor and weapon settings Pappy-R refers to are still being tweaked in LANs (remember the mod is still in beta). It's easy to say "what if controlling weapons leads to imbalance" and "what if controlling weapons leads to imbalance". It's just as easy for me to say "what if CPM produces a more complex and challenging interaction between armours, health and weapons, that enables experienced players to use more strategy, without causing undue imbalances between players of near-equivalent skill". It's so easy to speculate about whatever you want to, really. At the end of the day, the players will decide.
Weapon Switching
In the next section Pappy-R starts off talking about weapon switching and somehow switches to discuss the air control. What *was* his point about weapon switching? As far as I can tell, he agrees that it's fun. How odd. When he gets onto the subject of air control he completely misses the point of why air control is being implemented. Never mind, we should expect that.
Pappy-R seems to think we implemented air control so that you could dodge rails while in the air after jumping on a jump pad. It makes me cringe that we have Planetquake writing an editorial on our mod with this level of analysis. The air control in CPM is designed to make the gameplay smoother, more flowing, more complex and more fun. It has very little to do with your vulnerability while in the air, and more to do with how you get around a map. With greater air control a wider range of more complex jumps and movements become possible, and experienced gamers can do a helluva lot more. It's something akin to having more freedom, more options and more fun.
"The air control in Q3A is fine", asserts Pappy-R, "and no amount would save you from a decent rail shooter with his sights set on you. Again, this is just a Quake 1 revisitation". And with that, he moves onto to analysis of the next issue.
Footsteps
"It just makes sense that players make sounds when running full tilt through a level" intones Pappy-R. Has anybody else noticed that when players run full-tilt through a level in CPM they make a very loud "ugh", "ugh" noise and their feet make a loud slapping noise? Is Pappy-R deaf?
No he's not deaf, but he has missed the point that in CPM jumping has replaced running and running has replaced walking. Perhaps it was too subtle for him to grasp. Certainly, a|citizen explained it all in his Gamepig article. Oh well... But what of the "silence" of a CPM level when no-one is jumping and players are careful not to pick-up any items? This is a design idea which was accidental in Quake 1, and yet which forces the player to think, and to use available sounds both for information and for tactics. Pappy-R writes off this design concept because (a) it was originally accidental and (b) player footsteps should make noise. They should because they should!
Hit Tones
Pappy-R speaks - "Just knowing the shot hit the player is good enough, and you shouldn't get more info than that in competitive play". Does he give a reason? Well no, he gives a brief history lesson. But Pappy-R said it, isn't that reason enough?
Final Words
In his parting words, Pappy-R tells the world that the CPM team have no "valid reasons" for making our design decisions. Why? Because Pappy-R said so, that's why. He stands opposed to any sort of proposition that this becomes a competitive standard. What a surprise. Next, we get the special Pappy-R summary of what CPM is really all about:
"You either want to play Quake III with the "incomplete" physics of Quake 1 (air control and no footsteps), or you want to have it touch reality a bit more like Q3A does. You either want your matches based on denial of all items to the enemy, or you want to fight an armed opponent".
Faced with a choice like this, what self-respecting follower of Planetquake wouldn't rush to join the Crusade against Challenge Promode?
Comments
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As an old school quake player, who has played quake1 from its conception, and then moved on and accepted quake2 as his primary game, I think i can safelly say i hate vanilla quake3. Let me point out some other problems with Pappys article...
"I've also been hearing along these lines that Q3A is all about aim and skill with the gun and less about level control. Imagine my surprise when I heard that a first person shooter game for the PC relied on hand eye coordination for success. Isn't that kinda the point?"
Nope, sorry pappy, for most people repetitive aim, shoot, die/kill gameplay is NOT fun. Id much rather play something that makes me think on my feet and plan my moves.
" Now if we take armour back into it, you can control, or get the upper hand by controlling the armour on a level. Your foe will have a gun, but how long will he survive a battle without that valuable treat? Again, along these lines is the re-introduction of the Backpack (surprisingly from Quake 1). What's the need if weapons spawn in every 5 seconds? Moot point as far as I can see. If the above features in Quake III remain untouched, then it all works out for gameplay in my book."
the whole fun of it.. is NOT going into battle without a gun.. and rather... avoiding the opponent and outsmarting him to get a gun and the backpacks are awsome.. cause they really REWARD getting that extremelly hard kill when your opponent is stacked and on a roll and you manage to take him down both things make you work harder and smarter for level control.. and give MUCH higher rewards for plotting out an elaborate way to trap an opponent and getting a kill on him.
Cunning and tactical planning beat mindless reflexes when it comes to fun.. at least for me.
"You either want to play Quake III with the "incomplete" physics of Quake 1 (air control and no footsteps), or you want to have it touch reality a bit more like Q3A does."
Just one question? what reality is he talking about? is he on crack? railguns, rocket launchers, bounce pads? does he have any of those things in his every day life? I sure dont.
I could write more, but unfortunatelly i dont have time. I had to say something though, because that article was simply ridiculous.
Thanks,
Derek
aka. .ki.t0wer
PS. I love the work you guys are doing, as do most of my friends, if you need any more help with beta testing id be glad to help out. |
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err.. I thought I posted this on the article. but it ended up in the news page comments.. so here it is AGAIN! :) Hint Honny, get rid of the pop ups ;)
Since that is out of the way.... I know Pappy and I would problably consider him to be a "regular" player and not a extremelly competitive player, of course I can't speak for him. I think the Pro Mode supporters have to get ready for more articles like this, articles from the "non pros" because there will be many more of them as this gains popularity.
Personaly, I'm 50/50 when it comes to Pro Mode. There are a lot of things that I like, and others I don't like so much. The one thing I agree on is that Quake 3 just isn't as much fun or interesting as Quake 1 and Quake 2 were. If you think other wise, you problably didn't spend a year or more playing each game.
Is Pro Mode going to save Quake 3? Who knows.. but its going to be a long road ahead.
Honny, true there are some inacuracies in Pappy's article, but I think you have to understand that his view, is pretty much what regular Q3 players get when they come here, read the features, and check out the comments and msgboards. I think for Pro Mode to become more acceptable, 2 things have to happen. 1, is the name of the mod, and 2 the general attitude of people when they are asked what Pro Mode is all about "ho, just makes Q3 more like Q1". I can't count how many times I have heard that one.
I would like to second t0wer on that one, if you need more testers, we are a bunch that LANs a lot.. let us know if you need further help testing and working this thing out.
.ki.OoGly
http://www.killerinstincts.com/ |
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Well since my buds have posted i might as well....i'm another long term quaker (pre-qw but post qtest :) and personally i do view pro mode as a QW remake, which isn't a totally bad thing in itself, Q1/Q2 1on1 was amazing in itself not just because of the play style the game allowed but the MAPS, Q3 have very poor maps when it comes to play design, it doesn't allow us the freedom maps like q2dm1 did (count the number of ways you can get to the mega health alone). So i think this mod must revolve around amazing maps like we saw in QW/Q2 or this mod won't ever gain acceptiace in the community.
.ki.Smokey
http://www.killerinstincts.com
p.s. any spelling mistake isn't my fault, need a text box with a spell checker! |
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if major tourneys will accept this mod as a standard default
then most people interested in playing as a so called "pro"
will expect to have servers on the net where they can play
promode, the thing is not everyone will agree on it/ or want to change their playing style after getting used to
vanilla q3....so in the end what we're gonna be faced with
is a split in the q3 community just like q1 was nq/qw.
Which in itself will screw things up.
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I just wanna say that I just love the energy that the promode team is putting into Promode! They are really trying to make a mod that gives the player WAY more opportunities when it comes to trying to be a better player. I mean that in Q1 you could practice alot, try to lear all the tricks in the book to defeat good opponents. Now in Q3 you sure has to practice to be able to beat a good opponent BUT the things that separates you from the other guy's skill are so much less! Now in Q3 you can practice aim, aim, aim and then some tactics and a few tricks. I wanna know that a great player has practiced tactics, tactics, tactics, aim and ALOT of tricks to beat me!! Then it's so much more fun to learn everything about a game because it really rewards you.
I just love Promode and so do all my friends. We are playing at work (yes we are THAT kind of people..hehe) almost everyday and Promode has simply taken over! Then you must realize that most of my friends has never played Q1, they started playing vanilla Q3. Now that they have tried Promode for a couples of weeks NOBODY wants to go back to vanilla Q3. That ought to say something, doesn't it!!?
Almost everyone has started to practice all kinds of trickjumps and they (beginner as well as experienced) get so damn happy when they starts to master a trick, bunnyjumping, aircontrole turns etc etc.
Simply put, The Promode team has made a helluva good job, keep it up guys!!!
Yours sincerely Clarre (aka sLuRp) 30 year old quaker and still going strong.
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That PQ article was swiss-cheese.
Not only is Pappy-R obviously too un-informed to the subtleties of Quake to debate this topic in the first place, but he does it with such a 'Red Scare' manner that he looks ridiculous.
It really pisses me off when folks expound on topics they haven't researched enough to know anything about, topping it off by self-righteously proclaiming they know the intentions of the participants - specifically the creators of CPM in this case.
I hope any self-respecting Quake player out there can judge this mod on it's own merits after the next release, without PQ influencing them from the get-go by simultaneously licking id's balls and writing trashy editorials discouraging support for intrinsic adjustments and in many cases _corrections_ made to their game(ahem, sound bug anyone?).
Let me clarify - I like Q3, and at first was TOTALLY opposed to Pro-Mode, if for no other reason than the Name, which at first seemed to imply that it's the only "pro" level way to play the game(I know, kinda shallow criticism). I was happily playing Q2 when many still held onto QW in protest; I got used to weap switch delays, no backpacks, LOVED ra2 also.
But VQ3...it's just not as fun as the previous two Quakes - maybe at first, but why are all the good players getting tired of it so quickly?
Why does Teamplay SUCK?
Why is everyone itching to find something new?
It gets stale AWFUL fast in it's current form.
CPM injects much of the past excitement and potential for cool moves back into Q3. Having played the latest unreleased beta for a good chunk of time on a lan, I feel I can safely say that it's NOT QW.
It's COOLER.
It's the bonuses of Q3 with the cool stuff that came before it.
Pappy-R shouldn't be so afraid of it - instead he should be off playing ffa or something..maybe even trying CPM for more than 1 game!
I'm not afraid of a split in the community as long as it's in the name of FUN and COMPETITION.
Congrats CPM team - your mod kicks ass!
Keep up the good work =]
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I have played vanilla q1, q2m, q3, and lots of mods including pro mode.
So, do I like pro mode? Yep, its gets better the longer you play with it.
But. Just about every god damn mod and version of quake is the same for me. The more you play, the better you get, the better you get, the more you enjoy it.
Do I think it's good for professional gaming? Nope.
What makes a game pro?? It's not the game man, its the PLAYERS and the ORGANIZATION that does it!. I think OSP for q3 makes a better pro gaming platform than anything pro mode offers with its great game analysis. Who cares what you change about the game physics, weapon change, weapon damage, splash damage, air control, double jumps, starting health, lightning gun model, footsteps, backpacks, and so on.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the guys who dedicates himself to it more, practices more, and has more of that special flare that just gets them over the line.
You know, it's a real shame, cause I do know that a lot of bloody hard work is going into making pro-mode. And to tell the truth, I think it has some things I wish WERE included in the original quake3 (grenade launcher roks). But the truth is, the most useful thing is better analysis of a match, just like in every sport out there.
I know there are a lot of people that think quake 3 is boring, I must admit, I feel the same way sometimes, but is pro mode going to be any different. Is quake any different? Is quake 2 any different. I can remember playing all these games, and getting bored with all at different times (I must admit, the boredom usually comes when I get smacked around a bit).
Another thing, and I know I'm gunna get flamed for this :P, is that I believe pro mode in NOT very popular among most gamers. And yet a lot of sites pimp it? Have you ever noticed the number of sites run by old school quake 1 guys? Quite a few really. :D (flame away!)
I like it, but I think people have gotten confused as to what professional gaming is about. (yeh, you may know about gaming, but do you understand the profession bit) Quake3 vanilla has proven itself a good platform for professional gaming, why the big fuss over a new PRO! Mode.
Please, change your mod, remove game changes, add in the best statistical analysis in the world, put in a chat client and an mp3 player (RA3 babee), throw in QTV and any other shit you can think up. I will be the first one to have you children.
-Blighty
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I think part of the controversy surrounding ProMode is because the word 'pro' is in it's name. We've all heard the "just because we call it pro doesn't mean it's only for experts"-story, but not all newcomers to the mod know that...
Now, I'm pretty much your average quaker, meaning that I can pull off strafejumps and time powerups, but still suck :)
But, I still think ProMode is a blast. Me and a friend played our first PM 1on1s last saturday, and we couldn't form complete sentences the following hour. We were that excited. So, if an average player can play some of his best 1on1-action ever in ProMode, maybe the name isn't all that well chosen, eh? |
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Title says it all i suppose... having read the different articles I find that the CPM guys throw out just as much crap as Pappy (if not more..)
CPM is for die-hard QW's who cant accept that Q3 doesnt suit their style of play. They claim its just a mod, to be used at the biggest tournaments etc, and "ofcourse it wont push out normal Q3". Arrhh comeon.. what a load of BS.. either You guys are too god damn stupid, or You somehow got the idea that the rest of the Q3 community is.
Play QW if you dont like Q3... and even.. play CPM if you like.. but dont try and serve CPM as "the mod for pro's" .. lol... it's the mod for QW's...
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I read Pappy's article, and I really didn’t find anything wrong with it.. its an editorial, i.e. the authors opinion on the subject, and in that respect you can not bash it. You opinion may differ from that of his (of course they would be as your making the mod.) I read your this and almost laughed my ass off.. Like really what are you trying to do here? defend the Pro Mod or attack Pappy for writing his opinion about your project? The sad fact is, your really just trying to get back at Pappy. In point of fact I agree with some of the statements Pappy makes in his article.
“Pappy-R has rather clearly penned his editorial to save the world from domination by the Challenge Promode (CPM). He defends Q3A against the threat of CPM becoming a competition standard. “
– Yea CLEARLY, give it a rest.. right from the get go, nothing but personal attacks and retard assumptions such as this. Please do you think Pappy sees himself as the white knight in shinning armor. (LAFF)
“From the perspective of the CPM team, we're making the mod to be as challenging and exciting for expert players as we can. “
- I wonder if the “expert” players like it.. hmmm do you think it would be used in competitions?? NAH
“However, we have no intention of "forcing" it's adoption by event organisers or by players (nor could we).”
- Thank god for that. However, by making this mod for the “expert” players that are the ones playing in the competitions your really killing trying to kill 2 birds with one stone. (indirectly of course, or is it indirect?)
“If it's any good, it stands a good chance of getting the thumbs up. And there is nothing that Pappy-R can do about that. It obviously sticks in his craw, because he tries his darndest to beat the mod into the ground. “
- THAT EVIL, EVIL MAN!! LOL, OMG your going so low with this article. sniff, sniff.. Pappy is being mean to us, by expressing his opinions.
“I never received an email from the guy, and to my knowledge neither did anyone else on the team.”
- Shit, neither did I, fuck I’m really sorry about that.. next time I want to have a thought of my own, I’ll email you 1st and get your permission, ok? (really sorry about this slip up)
“Here Pappy-R suggests that complex design issues can be decided equally well by any joe who forked over money to buy the game. “
- Heaven forbit that the little guy have a say!! OMG the world would end!
All gamers with experience in the game do have a worthy opinion on how the game should evolve. When Pappy made this point, anyone that could read between the lines knew that he didn’t mean that any newbie that just bought the game should be giving input on mod's such as this, he was stating that their is a large number of "non-pros" or people not included in your design team that could be a good source of input. As well give me a break with this "Pappy-R suggests it's how much money a player has won which determines their place on our design team." That’s not what he's saying at all.. your trying to put words in his mouth. Your the one that pumped this mod up at the beginning has being programmed by the "pros" so don't try to take that back now. It's a pretty lame to disagree on a point that you have pushed yourself.
“Simply unbelievable nonsense. “
- hehehe Silly Pappy!! Your so unbelievable.
“Currently he is finalising some remaining issues (like armor values and weapon respawns) through LANs with the team abuse guys, including a|citizen.”
- Wonder why citizen wrote that article… hmm puzzling
“Pappy-R suggests it's how much money a player has won which determines their place on our design team. “
- Didn’t you promote this thing as being made by the pros? I think you did… what is a pro or professional? Someone that gets paid for what they do?? Yes I think so.. Maybe Pro wasn’t the right word to use after all, eh.
“Pappy-R tries to scare us that if promode is used at senior competition level, then every vanilla Q3A server in existance will be snuffed out as the shadow of darkness falls: “
- OMG I’m scared the shadow of darkness is coming!! (nice drama Horny.. didn’t know you were a screenplay writer as well). Pappy is stating his opinions and isn’t trying to scare anyone, stop being so dramatic.
“Looking into his super-duper Planetquake crystal ball, Pappy-R intones: "it will and must be the standard at all the lesser levels". I'm not sure how or why he thinks this must be so, but Pappy-R said so and he writes for Planetquake. “
- WOW HE’S GOT A CRYSTAL BALL?!?!? Okay, you do know how lame you sound right Horny? Gee I wonder why a Standard shouldn’t be a standard for everyone and just part of the community? That’s a tough one.. *uses his brain * Maybe its because for people coming into the gaming community that have goals to become a “pro” they will have to play what the “pros” play, thus making it the standard for all levels. Thus, you shouldn’t ignore the little guy. Btw, yea I think your right.. I think he does write for Planetquake.
“Are you scared yet? “
- Of you, YES very.
“Next Pappy-R is rude enough to label our mod "Wanna be Quakeworld (WQW)". “
- It’s not?? * puzzled look *
“There are obvious similarities between CPM and Quake 1 or QW”
- OOOoohhHHH so it is then..
“but facts never stood in the way of this cheap and popular argument “
- You certainly proved that one!! GG.
“why should Pappy-R be any different than the rest who accuse us of "remaking QW"? “
- So what your saying is You’ve heard this before. INTERESTING
“Taking a few elements out of context”
- Boy you sure didn’t do any of that yourself!
“Pappy-R refers to are still being tweaked in LANs (remember the mod is still in beta). “
- Didn’t he say up front that this was based a lot on the article from citizen? Hmm doesn’t that make citizen’s article also inaccurate. But, you didn’t trash him personally.. wonder why that is??
“As far as I can tell, he agrees that it's fun. “
- Assumption, something you bitched at him for doing, practice what you preach.
“How odd. When he gets onto the subject of air control he completely misses the point of why air control is being implemented. Never mind, we should expect that. “
- Why is that? O I forget because Pappy is so EVIL righty then.. so I should expect the rest of this article to be as dumb as the 1st half right.. lets continue and find out.
“Pappy-R seems to think we implemented air control so that you could dodge rails while in the air after jumping on a jump pad. “
- He stated one possible reason, doesn’t mean that’s the sole reason.
“It makes me cringe that we have Planetquake writing an editorial on our mod with this level of analysis. “
- does the word editorial mean ANYTHING to you? Those are Pappy’s personal views and do not equal the views of Planetquake as a whole. nm should have expected that stupid remark.
“noise and their feet make a loud slapping noise? Is Pappy-R deaf? “
- No, but maybe you could call him and found out some other personal issues that you could make fun of.
“This is a design idea which was accidental in Quake 1, and yet which forces the player to think, and to use available sounds both for information and for tactics. Pappy-R writes off this design concept because (a) it was originally accidental and (b) player footsteps should make noise. They should because they should!”
- Shit you know what.. I just ran around my room and I heard footsteps.. OMG!! I wish people would stop whining about footsteps.
“"Just knowing the shot hit the player is good enough, and you shouldn't get more info than that in competitive play". Does he give a reason? Well no, he gives a brief history lesson. But Pappy-R said it, isn't that reason enough? “
- It’s not? Here ya go:
The hit tones.. that’s just obviously stupid..(imo)but if you would like a reason why.. here we go: The fact that hit tones were introduced was in fact due to the map size and therefore lack of visual keys when making long distance hits. It is just that, a little tone that says "gg you hit the guy". That’s all that is required, changing the tones is just a cheap way to know how much health the enemy has, if your good enough you can figure it out on your own.. (its not rocket science...daaa I hit da guy wif a railgun... daaa is he hurt??). It adds lets say a newbie factor.. where before you had to use your head to figure out the players possible health/armor. You can now just be told, as well changing the tones will be used as a reference to change weapons... to me hearing a sound that says "pull out the shaft!" doesn't add to the game in anyway.
“In his parting words, Pappy-R tells the world that the CPM team have no "valid reasons" for making our design decisions. Why? Because Pappy-R said so, that's why”
- You show daddy where the bad man said this! And daddy will take care of it. Your assumptions and conclusions from Pappy’s article make me sick.
“Faced with a choice like this, what self-respecting follower of Planetquake wouldn't rush to join the Crusade against Challenge Promode? “
- Not me, and not for that reason.. but because of this article. Pappy did not attack you or the design team personally, he simply expressed his views. Last time I checked that was still legal. (O shit I forgot you’ve labeled yourself king there.. sorry again and I’ll email you next time.)
Final Thoughts:
Horny your article is a joke, its just a bitter attack on someone for posting contrary thoughts to your own. OMG!! he doesn’t agree with what your trying to do!! quick lets twist everything he said and make it look as bad as possible!!! LAFF!. I might have given the pro mode a shot, but after reading this shit you just posted as an obvious attack on someone in the community I know to be fair is just outrageous. You sound like a 10 yr. old in the school play ground... "SHUT UP!! MY MOD IS GOOD!! YOUR BAD!!, I'LL SHOW YOU!" I think you've managed to misunderstand and twist everything that Pappy had to say, GG. Maybe next time you can be mature enough to stick to the issues and leave the personal attacks in the playground.. Your response to Pappy is much like my response to you.. Your not going to like it, and your probably going to return fire, but I couldn’t sit there and read that trash and not show you what you actually sound like.
[xeno]Charger
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In all the mails, postings, flames, rants and raves I've gotten, nobody seems to want to touch the main issue. Let me clear a few things up first. I started competitive play in Quake 1 in CTF and later DM and 1v1. I played under several names before I took the Pappy name. I play under several names so that I can just play when I go on servers. I guess I would be an average gamer now due to the time afforded me to actually play competitive ladders and tournies. This is changing and I am getting back into competitive play with the help of some of my clan mates taking extra time to get me back in shape. Now...onto the point that get's missed.
I was very surprised that everyone centered on what I liked and disliked about the Pro Mode Mod. That was an Editorial, not an article and therefore, just one guys opinion. In all the mail I've gotten both for and against, no one has touched the main issue. id Software tried to change the game for competitive play and got bitch slapped for every change. One part of the community or another bitched for each proposal. My point is that it would take ALL to agree. Not just a few in, top clans, top 1v1 players, but the whole. All would have to agree on the changes and I gotta tell you, from the massive mail I've gotten, people can't agree on the features to change in Q3A. I'm not saying I love everything about Q3A, but since it has to appeal to so many different gamers, I've taken it for what it is and learned to play it the way it is.
My point on the "standard at lesser levels" meant that if any Mod that changed the actual physics of the game were taken into play at a major tourny, let's say the CPL, then it would have a ripple effect all the way down the ladders, tournies and through the community. Anyone disagreeing with this just doesn't know people. You think the QIL would play Q3A if the CPL was CPM? Do you think OGL would be Q3A if CPL and QIL were CPM? And if it hit that OGL, then lower ladders would itch to switch. That's alot of people. I stand by the fact that everyone has a say, and there's no way THAT many people will agree on certain changes.
If the team behind CPM DOES manage to address this issue, then they'll be alot further along with their goals. Big job guys, good luck! And if we're voting, footsteps in, quick switch weapons out. :) |
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lets call the lil horny = hoony a lil slip ;]
(before someone brings it up) |
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Pappy's article aside, I have to paste the standard thing I've been pasting on different boards for some time now. Please print it out so I don;t have to paste any more :)
"WE believe Q3 is getting boring awfully fast. WE believe CPM brings back at least some of the excitement of past id games. WE are no longer bored to practice Q3 PM. If you are fine with vanilla Q3 and it fascinates you more every day, then ignore promode. Some people actually have fun with it, however impossible that may sound". |
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For the record, I haven't played the mod yet, but I do plan to check it out as I'm totally into competitive play and would like to form a valid opinion on it for myself.
One thing I want to stress: the editorial was Pappy-R's opinion. Editorials are by nature opinion, and therefore that does not mean that the entire PQ staff feels the way Pappy does and is either endorsing/not endorsing CPM. When it comes to editorials, we've always presented two sides of an issue that has gotten strong feedback. Disagree with Pappy? Write an editorial and we'll post it. (Although Hoony did that here already. :) The PQ staff members are Quake players, too, so we have our own opinions on things. Pappy-R happens to be a PQ staff member, and if it appeared that because of that the editorial spoke for the entire site, then let me reiterate that that is certainly not the case. As I said, if anyone disagrees and would like us to post a well-written editorial rebutting Pappy-R's, by all means, send it to me.
I think the fact that CPM is getting so much press on this issue is terrific - the community obviously cares more about competitive play than I would have imagined. I for one will be following this debate closely, and I hope to see more commentary on it from some of the top pro players.
- Hellchick
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by a freaking mile.
It's pretty funny to read a post so filled with sarcasm that was written by someone who so obviously doesn't understand what sarcasm is.
The pq editorial really seemed bent on painting cpm as a sort of 'insidious villain' among quake mods.
You didn't catch that? The tone?
I don't think I've ever seen such pointed criticism of a mod before, especially one such as cpm that's been play-tested so thoroughly.
Do y'all really have THAT much psycological difficulty with the name?
Get over it.
Like now, ok?
You don't like it? You don't play it.
You don't play it? Don't be so damned scared of it.
Both you and Pappy sound as if you're AFRAID people might actually like cpm.
I know, frightening.
A response to that article was justified and it really didn't contain any of the unecessary bullshit you inserted into your post; since you're a little on the slow side, what I'm talking about is how you annoyingly plod line by line through it playing it as if you're the Drunk Guy at The Party who's contributing nothing to the conversation, yet is still the loudest. With all your mis-directed sarcasm and line-by-line stupidity, you come off with the same 'The sky is falling!!' attitude that I find so funny in Pappy's piece, and that Hoony is obviously poking fun at.
Next time, you oughtta take a few minutes to digest an article before popping your fucking cork and looking like an ass on a public msg board. Of course, maybe like so many others that's what gets you off.
I don't know, and I suppose I don't want to know really.
Pity - you could have actually contributed to the 'debate' or whatever it is...
instead you come off as a bigger asshole than any of the parties involved.
Way to Go! |
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I don't... I was showing the maturity level of hoony by doing to him, what he did to pappy. I'm not afraid of a mod.. how stupid does that sound? Hoony's response to someones personal opinion (pappy's) was outrageous, I thought I'd show him just how outrageous it was.. and if you can argue the points I made feel free..
thats the problem, everyone here is focused on who wrote that editorial and not what was in the editorial.. It would make much more sense to just respond to the issues at hand and maybe provide some insight into the subject. but instead hoony took it on himself to attack Pappy-R personally as well as Planetquake. You think I'm an asshole.. do you think I'll lose sleep tonight? I've given input to rev personally (a couple of times), I've talked to a number of people involved or closely linked to the pro mode and the features. You have no idea what my view of the actual mod is.. you just know what I think of hoony from my post. You people need to hear things like what was in pappy's editorial and maybe see if there is room for improvement.. to make it as good as possible. As for playing it.. if its adopted by tourneys, yea I'll play it (and Ya I'll feel forced too) but I'm sure I'd learn to like it after awhile.. We all just want to make sure its the best it can be, being closed minded and defensive doesnt help the issue. |
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I don't... I was showing the maturity level of hoony by doing to him, what he did to pappy. I'm not afraid of a mod.. how stupid does that sound? Hoony's response to someones personal opinion (pappy's) was outrageous, I thought I'd show him just how outrageous it was.. and if you can argue the points I made feel free..
thats the problem, everyone here is focused on who wrote that editorial and not what was in the editorial.. It would make much more sense to just respond to the issues at hand and maybe provide some insight into the subject. but instead hoony took it on himself to attack Pappy-R personally as well as Planetquake. You think I'm an asshole.. do you think I'll lose sleep tonight? I've given input to rev personally (a couple of times), I've talked to a number of people involved or closely linked to the pro mode and the features. You have no idea what my view of the actual mod is.. you just know what I think of hoony from my post. You people need to hear things like what was in pappy's editorial and maybe see if there is room for improvement.. to make it as good as possible. As for playing it.. if its adopted by tourneys, yea I'll play it (and Ya I'll feel forced too) but I'm sure I'd learn to like it after awhile.. We all just want to make sure its the best it can be, being closed minded and defensive doesnt help the issue. |
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If you guys dont remember, q2 was handled the same way... What update made it so you felt like you were on "ice" Q3a is a baby still, and still needs to be modified up the arse. CPM is just personally insulted of Pappy's opinion, but any1 would be. Put it this way, you put in SO MUCH time, into something, and instead of giving constructive advice, you bash it. Think about that for a bit (thats to BOTH sides) So instead of giving personal attacks to eachother why dont you guys like actually WORK TOGETHER!!!! Remember we're trying to better the game and make John Carmack get that 14th Ferrari he's dreaming about, so come on people.... Let's make it happen!
:) :) :)
You all KNOW who this is, no reason for the alias, but just having fun before i get flammed by the ppl that do know me. |
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All this insulting and posturing over a mod? Dont be blinded by any offense you might take at Hoony's sarcasm -- He makes solid rebuttals, and defines a lot more specifics than anybody writing about CPM right now, except maybe citizen.
A lot of the Anti-CPM sentiment definetly seems to be born from fear of widespread CPM acceptance. If CPM is as terrible as the naysayers would like to have people believe, then the issue of scene acceptance doesn't matter, right? IMO some of the severely anti-CPM people are trying to prevent people from trying it out, or at least to give potential players a negative opinion of it before they get a chance to try it. My guess is that the idea is to attempt squelching it before it catches on.
Personally, I dont have any problem with people writing their opinions on the subject. I enjoy reading what people have to say (both positive and negative views) about something I've personally spent so much time working on and stressing over (I wouldnt be surprised if I woke up without hair one of these days.. damn game balance and air control). The problem that I *do* have is that quite a few Anti-CPM people are already bashing and writing articles without even trying the mod out first. I think that if people would try CPM out for a weekend on LAN with their friends or clanmates before heading out to join the Crusade, we'd be seeing less articles like Pappy's, and more like Citizen's. ;) If the naysayers give CPM even 1/10th of the chance they gave VQ3, and still come back to me saying, "rev, I still think it sucks complete ass -- you deserve to have your head sat on by an elephant" then I'll personally set up a dunk-tank for myself at the next CPL Event and make sure everyone gets a ball on the way in.
Less talk.
More play.
Be Happy.
Do yourself a favor and try the next CPM. ;)
--
a|revelation |
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[xeno]Charger - hey I know how you feel! Yes I shouldn't have used quite as much sarcasm and barbed humour about Pappy-R's arguments but after reading a lot of crap about CPM over the months I had to vent. I'm glad I did, too - it felt good. Btw, glad you cleared that up about "horny".
Hellchick - in my experience, when a newspaper publishes an "editorial" it is viewed as reflecting the view of the newspaper. With a website, maybe it's different. Some people might have read that and thought it reflected the "official position" of PQ. I was certainly unclear on that and thanks for the heads-up. Maybe an alternative for pure opinion pieces is to create a separate section - "columns", "rants" etc.
Pappy-R - I thought you offered many of your views on CPM without sufficient reasoned argument or research. And I had a good go at you for it. I used lashings of sarcasm and poked fun at you. I'm not actually sorry that I did, because I feel that you used a scaremongering "tone" in your own editorial, and it seemed to me like it was an unfair "beatup".
An "opinion" piece is no excuse for a bad argument. I'm quite willing to concede that I've made my share of bad arguments too however.
Reasoned discussion is obviously better for everyone concerned. I've said my piece. You're obviously one of the "good guys" with genuine concerns for the community that you are a part of. You are worried about what might happen if CPM becomes widely adopted.
You've clarified a couple of your points in your comment (above) and I would like to develop the discussion around those points. I have a few things to do today so give me some time to respond and maybe from this point on we can both contribute in a more positive fashion. |
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"i think pappy's article crystallizes the current situation in the qmunity: it's not about fun anymore, it's about criticizing and shoveling cheap hits. "
This quote embodies my biggest problem with the whole issue, but in the opposite way it was intended. It is the pro mode team and supporters that are "shoveling cheap hits" by dissing vq3 left and right in the name of promoting the mod. They claim that they are making the mod that is fun for them to play, which is fine, but then the common response to any criticism of it is met with "it wasn't meant for you, it was meant for pro's". Well I have news for you, besides for maybe fatality there are no quake pro's.
To be a pro player in any given sport means that you play that sport as your job. Meaning you make enough money off of it to live off of. No one on the pro mode team can claim this. So what is really meant is that the mod is intended for good players. Well, I'd be willing to bet that the split in the pro mode fans and the vq3 fans isn't along the lines of good players/bad players. It's more along the lines of people who like vq3/people who don't. There are quite a few good players of both sides of that split. So how is this mod any more pro than vq3? Or, more importantly, what gives the pro mode team or supporters the right to claim that vq3 is only fit for newbies? I see this as a major insult to anyone who happens to like vq3, including the good players. I guess my point is that if you like pro mode then play it (personally I enjoy both vq3 and pm), and if it gets you playing q3 when you otherwise wouldn't, then great. However, the vq3 bashing and condescending attitudes should stop because they only serve to weaken the public view of the mod and widen the rift between the two groups of players unnecessarily. Guilting people into supporting your mod by calling them newbies unless they like it is a cheap hit if I ever heard one.
-LiQuiD
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i am not going to comment on the specifics within your article pappy, for i could go on and on about how this or that is stupid in my opinion. you are entitled to your opinion as am i.
but pappy, next time you write an editorial, sit back and think first. most people who play quake3 play it casualy. they visit a few quake releted sites - a majority of them going to planetquake.
horray for you.
but do you realise that your SINGLE editorial destroyed most hopes for CPM to take off? these guys put in a huge effort into it, to try and gain support for it. in order for any mod to be successful it needs the support of joe-blow who plays 8 hours a week. even if they remove the air control, or the weapon spawns, or add sounds back in, the fucking newbies are going to be the sheep that they are and NOT participate in CPM. most of them wont even try the damn thing out, because of YOU!
why havent you posted this rebutle on your news? it would be nice for all the no-brainer masses to recieve more than one opinion on this. maybe you should have contaced rev and gotten him to respond to your comments - that would have been a more interesting article.
no wonder i dont visit planetquake, i try and keep the filth off of me.
---/
--/ kursor
-/ |
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Pappy-R's First point:
"In all the mail I've gotten both for and against, no one has touched the main issue. id Software tried to change the game for competitive play and got bitch slapped for every change. One part of the community or another bitched for each proposal. My point is that it would take ALL to agree. Not just a few in, top clans, top 1v1 players, but the whole. All would have to agree on the changes and I gotta tell you, from the massive mail I've gotten, people can't agree on the features to change in Q3A. I'm not saying I love everything about Q3A, but since it has to appeal to so many different gamers, I've taken it for what it is and learned to play it the way it is".
We are not making the mod to appeal to "all gamers". If we were, we might end up where Q3A is now. Our approach is to focus on gameplay features which reward a higher level of strategy and skill. People who enjoy CPM say they like these features because it gives them opportunities to grow more in their game. They also say it's more fun.
Granted, among clan players, competitive players and the elite there is always a range of views (though slightly more uniform) about these gameplay features (footsteps is a good example). But we are not making game design by democracy or by poll. If we go for the lowest common denominator we may end up with a set of features that do not work well with each other or haven't been tested enough.
We have chosen an experienced design team, and we have entrusted to them the task of determining the gameplay design. They test it extensively on LAN. We also get feedback via the beta releases. The result is a coherant gameplay which has been tweaked and refined to a high level.
We don't expect "all to agree" on the changes. We don't claim to have the answers, or to necessarily be the best people on the planet to do this, but we are doing it. The measure of our success will be the players - whether they decide our mod is more fun than vanilla Q3A or not.
There is a small but growing number of people who like the result, even though they might not agree with every feature. The alternative to doing this is to do nothing, which is what you recommend. You have "learned to play it the way it is" - good for you.
Pappy-R's second point:
"My point on the "standard at lesser levels" meant that if any Mod that changed the actual physics of the game were taken into play at a major tourney, let's say the CPL, then it would have a ripple effect all the way down the ladders, tournies and through the community. Anyone disagreeing with this just doesn't know people. You think the QIL would play Q3A if the CPL was CPM? Do you think OGL would be Q3A if CPL and QIL were CPM? And if it hit that OGL, then lower ladders would itch to switch. That's alot of people. I stand by the fact that everyone has a say, and there's no way THAT many people will agree on certain changes".
I find it difficult to believe that VQ3 would dissappear so easily - it is well suited to casual players, has a huge user base and so on. In any case, we the makers of a mod cannot be held responsible for lemming-like behaviour. Either they use it because they think it's better and their players desire it, or they use it becuase they are followers of fashion. That's not our problem.
However let's examine the logic of this sceanrio. Why would the CPL adopt CPM for a major tourney? It wouldn't be because we asked them to. It might be because they decided it was a better competitive platform to use. Let's cut to the chase - they have already stated their position on CPM. They have said they will only make such a change if that is what the majority of the players want.
So logically, the only way your scenario can come into being is if the majority of the players so desired it. How big a majority? I don't know, you'd have to ask the CPL. But it would have to be big enough to mean that more than enough people had ALREADY agreed on the changes before the CPL adopted CPM.
More likely than that scenario, is the scenario where a number of independent LANs and events use CPM - the "ripple-up" scenario. |
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QW wannabee???
I just hope the team behind CPM are able to stand above the huge ammount of crap thrown on them in articles/columns like theese. I've already posted that I enjoy CPM alot and have not played vq3 since the first beta of CPM. In fact, all my friends have switched to CPM, even those who never played Q1 but started as Q2 players. The reason for them to switch is clearly not because they wish old QW back - how could they know??? The simple fact remains that CPM just simply is alot more fun than vq3. Almost everyone seems to agree upon this today and the only matter remaining is the "PRO"-thingy. Actually I don't care if the "pro's" play CPM or vq3...not anymore. I've already grown tired of vq3's slow action-free environment. Up til now I've always thought that "I'll play what the pro's play" but that is no longer the fact. I also thought that "I'll play the same game that has lots of demos posted around the world"...this of course is no longer true either. A demo with two mediocre players reaping in CPM is about 1 million times more fun to watch than a vq3 CPL final. |
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I must have read almost ALL articles and columns about promode and all I can say is that the peaople that supports promode say over and over again that you all should try promode first. Most of them I feel are VERY reasonable about this whole thing. BUT the people who dislikes promode are most of the time "throwing heaps of crap" on not just promode but on the people behind promode. Come on, what kind of people are you!!?
I mean, sure you should speak your mind so to say but all this...makes me puke!
Why can't everybody discuss all the good things in promode and all the bad things. AND then support all of their good/bad criticism with solid arguments!?
Everything that the promode team has done, they have backed up with good arguments (my opinion), why can't people that dislikes promode do the same?? First TRY, then comment = very simple! And when you comment, plz tell us why you didn't like this or that!
I wanna give HUGE amount of credit to you, a|revelation. You have put alot of time and effort behind this mod and you can keep your temper and express you opinions in such a mature way even though so many people "thrash" all of your work. THAT is what I call a person that we really need in the growing quake community!
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| I'm all for CPM and I think it's coming along nicely. I have to make one gripe, though, and that's about the hit tones. I'm not argueing for whether or not there should be various tones depending on damage done, I'm argueing that hit tones should be removed alltogether. Much more satisfying are screams of pain, moans and grunts. Q2 was best for this. I hated the hit tones when Q3Test came out. It's Nintendo 64ish and gimmicky...just plain unneccessary. That's all. Keep up the great work guys! |
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A good post by GreySeer on Challenge-au about promode!
Go check it out, especially all of you that hasn't tried promode yet. |
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arg... too many TLA's ;D
but seriously, what are the QIL, OGL, CPL?
I've never heard of them :/ |
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I'm happy that after all everything has been discussed in a rational and adult way.
It's true that after reading Pappy-R editorial, I was quite on his side. For one simple reason that has been correctly mentioned by someone above : I LOVE VQ3 as it is. I just can't stop dropping my jaws at it everytime I play. And I've played nq1, qw & q2 (which I didn't like feeling-wise).
So I was getting angry at all the ProModers saying that VQ3 sucks and how much CPM is better. And what I like in Q3 is that whithout the history of a "pro" I could still have fun in a map without being controlled from A to Z...
It's difficult to be a "casual good player" like me coz you're annoyed to fight newbies but get tired of getting bashed by ppl that train everyday... and CPM wasn't making all this easier.
Also there are almost no public CPM servers here in Europe, compared to all the other beta-mods.
But I'll sure give a try, if beta .28 is out...
My 2 centimes. |
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some thoughts that came to mind after reading the words of pappy, citizen, hoony, and the response to it all here
-i think that pappy wasn't suggesting that depending on how well someone has done, that should determine their position on the CPM team, i think he may be hassling the money-winning players on the team, ie: makaveli, yes he's made money from comps, so (sarcastically) his opinion _must_ be better than the average player.
-pappy hassles the CPM team in terms of being unable to see past the game that they all enjoy so much, qw. i recently mailed hoony about some of the air-control issues, among other things, and it was quite clear that his and the team's intention was not to replicate qw, but to improve upon good features from it. poorly researched indeed.
-pappy talks about the mod like it's finished - it's in beta, which means many of the releases are simply a test with a set of gameplay styles, so that the designers can get the feedback they need from the ppl that play it. that in no way are the set of a particular beta final. a fairly obvious fact that pappy tends to ignore. similar to many of the unsubstantiated points he has included in his editorial. it's all almost so bad, that he knows this, and just wants to get a reaction...
-he talks about leaving q3 comps for playing vq3. which would support his theory of CPM = QW, balls to bones. CPM _is_ q3 - q3 for players that can't stand treating q3 as it is out of the box, (a game made with new players in mind) as a fair replacement and progression for the older quakes. iD didn't include such a "pro" mode in their releases, perhaps they weren't able to do so themselves, but they made effort even to get something like the PM mod going. iD _didn't_ change it for competive play, they changed it to be easier for new players to start with, to decrease the learning curve of quake, and try to increase the gaming community in doing so. they also did it to release a new quake, and make sales, perhaps not realising that their decisions at that stage would become so important and hotly debated. when the gaming community steps out and does something about it, they get hassled, unfortunately in this case by a player who writes for a site that thousands will read - and taken by the readers to be well thought out and with a lot of reason backing it all up. by the status of the writer himself many will take his words to be right, especially if they don't know anything else about the promode, whether pappy's words are opinion or not, editorial or article. as revalation says - the "naysayers" are trying to give people a bad opinion of it before they try it themselves. whether pappy intends this or not, it still has that effect.
i also think that there is a hell of a lot of support for the PM already - i know a lot of average q3 players and am not into comps myself yet, but many ppl i know are sick of vq3, and enjoy the beta promode so far, FAR more than the vanilla sort. in my country (new zealand) PM is already gaining acceptance in the world of gaming... it seems to be looked on as the mod that we've all been waiting for, rather than with the negative views of q3 players like pappy, that of a mod that's trying to take over and ruin the communities as they are. so WHAT if there is a ripple effect? so WHAT if more average skill players switch to play a faster, more exciting, more enjoyable, game with more room for extensions of skills from what vq3 would have us use? people may well be scared that the q3 they know is going to change drastically and destroy the quaking scene, but people naturally fear what they don't understand. i think once more people hear about the PM, (and the more they hear) they're going to read about it, and perhaps see what the CPM team are actually trying to develop. not a die-hard nostelgic return to qw gaming, but a logical progression of quake for players who are interested in competitive gaming. sure average players enjoy vq3, and it can and has been played to a significant degree by "pros" - but this doesn't mean to say that people should simply accept vq3 as the final word on competitive quaking.
anyway, mad props to the CPM team, for withstanding the pressure, and for making such an awesome mod :) |
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I must welcome our pro-mode friends to to the gaming-politics. You just make all those arguments look a little different to get as much people u can on you side. You want players to play ur game and that's all. Organising tournaments with pm is the first step only.
we'll have a very nice divided community ... do you think a non-promode player will look at those demos ? or even look those "stars touneys" ?
i hope u frecked out reading this because every line i read from pro-mode reporter make me sick : yes you read well ... al the time making the truth look diffrent, you fucking bunch of disgusting liers. |
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| You sound a little paranoid there, anonymous poster. What can one say except that, people are entitled to like and play the games they want to. They are also entitled to argue about it, and a good argument is one that is logical and provides strong reasons in support of the main points. Perhaps what is frustrating you is the fact that you don't have a good argument. |
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First I want to say I have no particular feelings towards your mod, it's one of many, a good one, but not the best IMHO.
I do think it shouldn't be called Pro Mode for Q3, because it isn't. Why not? Well I think every1 will agree that this mod is basically a remake of the older Quakes (qw and a minor touch of q2) to fit in the q3a engine.
Q3A introduced a new way of playing quake, more raw combat. A lot of 'old school' players and clans couldn't or wouldn't cope with the change. Myself I do like VQ3A as you like to call it, it gives new types of challenges and if I wanna play old school quake I just switch cd's. So will the mod attract experienced players? Yes, but it will be the experienced Q2/QW players, not the experienced players that made the switch to Q3A, nor the new pro's to come. So this is a pro mod for Q2/QW players, not for Q3.
IMO QW/Q2 was great while it lasted, but I do not mind making the switch to Q3A. And again, apart from the gfX from Q3A, I see no particular use for this mod.
btw remember this is just a game, nothing to get upset about. Even if you are a real pro in both Q3 and this mod, it doesn't mean shit. |
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| And I forgot to say I do not agree with everything the guy on PQ is saying, he just seems pissed at you for some reason (anyone of you did his daughter or somethin'? ;) |
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| If the CPM crew don't want their mod to become the de-facto standard for professional q3 gameplay then its name really has to change. Why? Well, the real pros out there won't be able to devote much time to playing it if they're not going to be using in competitive matches. If they do then it's quite likely that they'll slip down the rankings as they're overtaken by the guys who live and breathe standard q3. |
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my my what a fag, pUppy. Get your facts strait, Pro Mode's gonna OWN Both Ways. Maybe you should think of changing your nick, cause your current one sucks.
How about puppy ?
Pro M0de 0wnZ Planet wanna be Qu4ke.
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The article seems to spend most of it's time devoted to trashing Pappy-R for no apparent reason. It does this above answering his arguments. This article seems to jump on the let's trash GSI employee's for apparent reason other than they are GSI employees.
-tom
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Where I come from, an "editorial" is usually taken to represent the views of the publishing body, so I saw that "editorial" as an attempt by PQ to squash our mod.
I view PQ as a big player with a lot of influence, and I felt like our mod was being "trashed" unfairly. I was extremely annoyed at the tone, the rhetoric and the lack of any real argument or research to back it up.
But you're right, I should have written my rebuttal without once mentioning his name, or poking fun at his arguments, and next time I will make an effort to write a better article. |
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I think vanilla Q3A and CPM are just going to provide gaming for two different audiences. If you don't like Q3A, play CPM. If you don't like CPM, play Q3A.
I think the term "Pro Mode" is a total misnomer - Since the title itself seems to say - "vanilla Q3A is for NON-pro players" or "You have to master Pro Mode to be a real Q3 pro"
The truth is, a master of the "Pro Mode" mod may not be a master of vanilla Q3A, or vice versa. It is almost inappropriate to call it "Pro Mode" since you don't have to be a pro to play it. By the same token, being a pro at Q3A doesn't mean you'll be any good at "Pro Mode".
I have to agree with Pappy-R in the sense that by naming the mod "Pro Mode", it seems as if the design goal is to instantiate this mod as a "replacement" for Q3A solely in the professional gaming leagues like OGL and CPL. This is as opposed to the design goal of creating a new and fun mod for all to enjoy in or out of professional competition. Since the two forms of Q3 are different, and being a pro at one doesn't mean being a pro at the other, both forms of the game deserve a spot in professional play. (an example to this is having both a skiing sport and a snowboarding sport in the winter olympics.. they're both on snow, just different ways to do it)
The stiff part about naming the mod "Pro Mode" is that a master of vanilla Q3A may be offended by this mod. "Pro Mode" can be interpreted by some as a means of saying, being a master of vanilla Q3A is somehow of less value than being a master at "Pro Mode". As if "Pro Mode" was more advanced that Q3A. A master of vanilla Q3A may be unjustly labelled as not a real pro. Should a master of vanilla Q3 defeat a master of pro mode while paying vanilla Q3, the a pro moder may typically feel or say "this means nothing because you can't win against me in pro mode, therefore I am still better than you".
This "more advanced" idea is merely an opinion formulated by a community. It is purely OPINION. You can't qualify a more advanced version of Q3A gameplay objectively. "Pro Mode" is NOT more advanced than vanilla Q3A... it is just different. I understand that not everyone will agree with this statement. For the record, I "PREFER" to play a game more like CPM, but I just believe that "Pro Mode" isn't really a fair name to give it.
I disagree with the naming of the mod, but I think the features and concept of the mod are great. I will probably play CPM almost exclusively over vanialla Q3A. I don't think you have to play "Pro Mode" to become a real pro though. It's not a more professional way to play, rather, it's just a different way to play.
Kurg
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| ITS JUST A FUCKEN NAME, DONT YOU GET IT?!?!? LOOK PAST THE NAME AND TRY THE FUCKEN MOD AND SHUT UP, GOD IM SICK OF THESE FUCKEN IGNORANT PEOPLE. FUCK FUCK FUCK :o |
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What Contra said.
"Hey... that looks fun... but... 'Promode'?"
"Help me! The scary name is coming to get me! Me no likey scary name, me think scary name makey mod crap"
*cough* |
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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
*one for de history books* |
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